Want to get replies from Abdur_Rahman , Nur, Avilos

[Faisal_Aslam]

A.A
I find out that there were some answers in the other thread message that I did not read because that was too long.
I am unable to read Avilos above reply as that is also too long so I will try to read both of them when I will find some more extra time. I wish if you people give more smaller replies.

Faisal Aslam


[quote]Originally posted by Nur

Originally posted by Faisal_Aslam
A.A

I want to know the reason that why 3 people in this forum who tell them sunni but act like shias and who know very well Shia point of views and advocate them.

I am not a scholar and have very limited knowledge but ...

Assalamu alaikum,
Brother Faisal, you have answered your own question. You are sincere but you have very limited knowledge and that is your main problem. How can you have strong opinions when you have very little knowledge brother?

The oldest sunni institution in the worl, Al-Azhar university recognises the shia madhab as a valid madhab and it is now going to teach the shia madhab as well as the four sunni madhabs. How and why are the sunni scholars of Al-Azhar teaching the shia madhab?

Do you accept, brother Faisal, that the scholars of Al-Azhar university are sunnis and that Al-Azhar university is a sunni institution? Why then are they teaching the shia madhab and why have they addressed Ayatollah Khameini as the leader of all muslims? Why have the ulema of Tunisia declared him as the leader of all muslims? Why did Ahmad Deedat say that the shias of Iran are the best muslims in the world?

Do you accepet that Ahmad Deedat is a sunni scholar? Please anwser this question and look into these matters and then you will understand why some sunnis sound like shias.

And brother Faisal, don't say "3 people", say Nur, Abdur Rahman and Mohammad.

I want to know why Harat Ali was always nice to all other 3 (out of 4) Khalfah-e-Rashideen who Shia does not believe (and abuse them in their books).

I want to know the following:

1) Why according to Sahih Bukhari, Ali did not give allegiance to Abu Bakr for 6 months.

2) Why Abu Bakr took by force land off the sinless daughter of the Holy Prophet (saw), Fatima, which the Holy Prophet (saw) had given to her as a gift (this is also according to bukhari).

3) Why was Fatima so angry at this that she did not talk to Abu Bakr ever again or at least until she was dying (according to another account in bukhari)?

3) Why is it that the same land was given back to Ali once he decided to give allegiance.

4) Why is it that Ali under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthmnan had no government position?

5) Why is it that Belal refused to perform Adhan again after the death of the Holy Prophet (saw)?

6) Why is it that when the Holy Prophet (saw) and his followers were forced out of Macca and had to live for 3 years in the wilderness, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were not with the other muslims, but were in Macca?

7) Why does Ali mention clearly in his speeches that the muslims are required to follow him and that he was the successor to the Holy Prophet (saw)? Why is it that the first 3 Caliphs do not make the same claim?

8) Why was Ali not consulted when Abu Bakr was elected as Caliph?


I want to know why Hazrat Ali did not go on war against first 3 Khalifa, if those all 3 are doing something against Muhammad (PBUH) advice and will?

Probably for the same that the Holy Prophet (saw) did not go on war against the same companions when they openly disobeyed him (saw) on several occasions.

Also, did the Holy Prophet (saw) respond to all those who did wrong by declaring war on them?

If I believe that what Shia are saying is truth that All first 3 Khalifahs had done Khalifa against Muhammad (PBUH) will then it means they are telling me that Hazrat Ali had done sin by NOT protesting or going war against them ?? No Ali had not done any sin and neither first 3 Khalifa was wrong . That is Shia who are wrong...


Your reasoning is unislamic brother Faisal, because you are saying that the shias are wrong because the implication of them being right is that the first caliphs committed wrong doings. How is that a valid argument? Are you saying that it was impossible for the first 3 caliphs to do wrong? Why did Fatima, the daughter of the Holy Prophet (saw) refuse to talk to Abu Bakr then? Why did Ali refuse to give allegiance to Abu Bakr? (Both of these facts are menioned in sahih bukhar!) You have to look into what happened and what the first 3 caliphs did and then decide whether they did right or wrong? Are the companions excluded from Allah’s laws? Are they above the laws of Islam?

As Ali said “judge personalities by looking at the truth and not the truth by looking at personalities”

Perhaps you should actually study the history written by scholars accepted by the sunni ulema and you will see that Ali did protest by, for eg, not giving allegiance to Abu Bakr for 6 months. You will find in the sunni books, including in books such as sahih bukhari that there was conflict between Ali and the other companions. The fact that Ayesha fought Ali should be more than enough evidence that there was conflict between Ali and other companions.

Do you accept, brother Faisal, that Ayesha was wrong in fighting Ali? Do you accept that the first 3 caliphs were not sinless and that they could commit sin or are you of the opinion that they are sinless and incapable of committing a sin?

Also do you reject all sunni historical accounts which show that Ali was either not consulted and/or he did not approve of Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman as being selected as Caliphs?

Brother Faisal, you said yourself that you have very limited knowledge but you write so confidently that the shias are wrong. Please, brother Faisal, just read the historical accounts written by the sunni scholars, such as that by Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, ibn Hisham, etc and read he hadiths books too and then if your heart is open you will find some truths that you are perhaps not aware of now.

I want to know why there are marriages between Hazrat Ali next generations and other 3 Khalifa generations who shia abuse.

Firstly, the sin that is committed by a person is not automatically passed on to their children, so if a companion did wrong against Ali it does not mean that Ali cannot marry the daughter of this companion or have any relationship with any family members of this companion.

In fact, brother Faisal, Ali married the wife of Abu Bakr after he died and brought up his son, Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr was a follower of Ali and he fought on the side of Ali against Ayesha. He was later killed by Muwawiyah.

Is it not true that many of the early muslims had relatives that were idolaters? Did that mean that they were not good muslims and that other muslims could not marry them?

Secondly, Prophet Nuh was married to someone who did not actually believe and who perished with other disbelievers, so it is possible that pious muslims can end up marrying someone who is bad.

Thirdly, Imam Ali in one of his letters to Muwawiyah points out that despite the high status of the family of the Holy Prophet (saw) and despite the low status of the umayyads, the family of the Holy Prophet (saw) still mixed with the umayyads and even married their womenfolk.

It was the umayyads who opposed the Holy Prophet (saw) and Islam from the beginning, yet the Holy Prophet (saw) and the ahl-ul-bayt did not prevent umayyads from marrying into the Prophet (saw)’s family. For eg, the wife of Imam Hasan (the older grandson of the Holy Prophet (saw) was related to Muwawiyah (a seriously wrongly guided caliph and an umayyad!) and poisoned Hasan to death.

If in Quran Allah says that ..I am happy with Sahabah as a generation..(that is not exact wording) then who Shia make most of Sahabah as Murtid.

Where does it say that?

Saying that a companion committed sins or did wrong is not calling them murtad. And brother Faisla, what do you think that Allah means when He says in the Quran that after the Holy Prophet (saw) passes away many of the muslims will go back to their old ways?

In the Quran only love and praise for the family of the Prophet (saw) is unconditional, while love and praise for sahabas depend on their actions. This is why, the Quran speaks highly of the companions when they do good but condemns them when they do wrong.

For eg, when the Quran says that “your friend (the Holy Prophet (saw) is not mad…”, who is it addressed to? Who was the Holy Prophet (saw) “friends” with? This verse refers to companions (ie friends of the Holy Prophet (saw) who accused him (saw) of being mad!

In one of the surahs in part 28 of the Qur’an, Ayesha and Hafsa, wives of the Holy Prophet (saw), are condemned for always opposing the Holy Prophet (saw).

The family of he Holy Prophet (saw), on the other hand are never condemned in the Qur’an and in fact there is a Quranic verse which makes it obligatory for us to love the family of the Holy Prophet (saw). The fact that our salat is not valid if we do not pray for the family of the Holy Prophet (saw) should tell us all something about the status of the family of the ahl-ul-bayt (the family of the Holy Prophet (saw)).

And there are few Ayats in Quran about Hazrat Ayesha innocience and Shia abuse her and do not accept her hadiths.
How can Quran praise a women which shia abuse..
Either I have to reject Shahaba OR the Sahaba generation who is narrated very good in Quran or I have to reject Shia and I rejects Shias.

Do you then reject the Quranic verses which condemn Ayesha? The verse which defends Ayesha is about a specific incident and does not give her a licence to commit sins that are forbidden for all other muslims. Do you reject those Quranic verses that condemn the sahabas for disobeying and doubting the Holy Prophet (saw)? Do you reject the sahaba, Ali, by siding with Ayesha who declared a war against Ali during his Caliphate , which resulted in thousands of muslims being killed?

Tell me do you accept that Ayesha did wrong In fighting Ali, a rightly guided Caliph, or do you believe that Ali was wrong? If Ayesha made a “mistake” in fighting Ali, could she not also make a mistake in reporting hadiths? Do you reject the teachings of Ali in favour of the teachings of Ayesha, despite al lthe hadiths about Ali’s knowledge?

Do you choose the sahabas over Allah and the Holy Prophet (saw) and the ahl-ul-bayt who were purified by Allah?

Do you reject the sunni belief that the family of the Prophet (saw) were the fountainhead of knowledge an fiqh?




See I control myself long time so either you (announced) Shia and unnounced Shia stop spreading Shiaism or I might not be able to kept myself away from this Shiaisum ... as you are misguiding people.

For someone who has “very limited knowledge” you write very confidently about your views. Fear Allah and do not allow your ignorance and love for people other than the Holy Prophet (saw) to influence your beliefs.

Are you a sunni? If you are then I suggest you read the writings and verdicts of the sunni scholars. Either accept what is written in the sunni books regarding the sahabas and the family of the Holy Prophet (saw) or prove that it is all false.

And brother Faisal, I don’t care whether you or anyone else regards me as a shia or a sunni – I am not here to please you or anyone else on this site. I have certain beliefs and I back up my beliefs with sources accepted by the sunni ulema. On what do you base your views? Based on the teachings of which sunni scholar do you preach that the sahabas committed no wrong and that they are equal if not better than the ahl-ul-bayt?

I hate it when muslims claim to be sunnis and yet do not know anything about sunnism and do not talk to sunni ulema and do not read the books accepted by the sunni ulema. For those brothers who are in the uk and who believe that only the shis follow the ahl-ul-bayt, I suggest you come down to Manchester and pay a visit to all the sunni mosques and then ask them about the ahl-ul-bayt.


[Edited by Nur on 12th June 2001 at 07:28]

[Faisal_Aslam]

A.A

Brother Nur

I have read just that yet


Faisal::
I want to know why Hazrat Ali did not go on war against first 3 Khalifa, if those all 3 are doing something against Muhammad (PBUH) advice and will?

Nur Reply::
Probably for the same that the Holy Prophet (saw) did not go on war against the same companions when they openly disobeyed him (saw) on several occasions.

Also, did the Holy Prophet (saw) respond to all those who did wrong by declaring war on them?

______

But this is simply unexceptable for me as well as I know that the gurad of Hazrat Usman (when some people want to Shaheed him) was sons of Hazrat Ali (Hussan and Hussain) and one who disobey Muhammad (PBUH) and decline his some order is not a muslim for me. And if Hazrat Usman was like 3 Kalafah had done against Muhammad (PBUH) wishes then ...

Muhammad (PBUH) can forgive someone who disobey him or insult him but do you think Ali can be friend of someone who disobey Muhammad (PBUH) and insult Muhammad (PBUH).
NO NO
First 3 Sahaba Insult Muhammad(PBUH) and disobey Muhammad (PBUH) according to Shia... and Ali ignore it.
I am confuse ..

I can not understand this thing ... That is one the many reasons I think shia wrong..
I will read your reply in detail later.

Faisal Aslam

[Edited by Faisal_Aslam on 14th June 2001 at 13:27]

[keesooree]

Originally posted by muhammad
[QUOTE
Neither of these posts are suggesting that Faisal is calling other Muslims Kufar - the general expression "so called Muslims" was used which could refer to anyone. She is saying "Why r we acting like the kuffars" which has a completely different meaning. Read the posts carefully bro.

Assalamu'alikum bro,

May Allah reward u on the day of Akhiraah (insha-Allah)

Finally, someone who read me post and understood it, Masha-Allah


Bro Mhnew:

we are all educated pple, hence we need to use our knowledge before we jump to 'she said that he said that.........'

i asked a straight forward Q, ive asked this before on the shiah/sunnism thread and got no reply from bro Faisal, hence i have taken the liberty to ask it again.

I am not attacking bro Faisal, if it seemed that way then i apologise to him and ask Allah for forgiveness. I am only a servant to Allah (saw) and it is Him i wish to please.

may Allah(saw)guide us all (insha-Allah)

wasalaam

[Star]

Assalamualaikum Brother Nur.

You have obviously researched this at depth and have a wealth of evidence at your disposal.. I'm sure you also have the hadith references too, no doubt it would be useful if you posted them at some convenient point in time. Also I am assuming it was something you may have posted in the past - so you probably have it saved...(dear serial saver)


So given your extensive research would you not say that you believe the position as held by Imam Jaffar (the fifth madhab as you term it) to be the correct one. In fact that the Shia faith as now is practised in Iran to be the correct adoption of Islam. Even that those who follow one of the other Madhabs, are not correct in their beliefs - even though there intention might be true.

In fact would you not argue that Shia-ism is correct and Sunniism - by which i classify those who accept Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali as legitate khalips and those who believe the Ahl-ul-bayt to extend beyond Hazrat Fatima,Ali and their family, for example.

I have always believed in Islam to include Sunni and Shia - despite the differences that exist and that is how I have been led to believe.

So my questions are not meant to cast aspersions that these are two distinct groups.

However, there are clear differences in detailed aspects of these beliefs. To the extent there are some sunnis who do not feel able to pray behind shias and there are some shias who do not feel able to pray behind sunnis.

And I do not doubt for a second, that both sides will genuinely believe themselves to be correct and will have conflicting Hadith and Tafsir of Quran to justify their views.


But when it comes down to it - when we are all fighting the same purpose - through different methods maybe - then why is it that you and indeed Muhammad, and Abdur-Rahman - at present are not in the Shia camp - given your more detailed knowledge of the issues.

[Avilos]

Assalamo Alaikum.

I will break my answer up into bite-size chunks for you then brother Faisal_Aslam

------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Faisal_Aslam
A.A

Yes I am not a scholar and have very limited knowledge but I want to learn Shia point of view so I want to ask....
Is it has any problem ?


I might not find time to read long answers (so please write to the point answers)... Please do not ask more questions form me "in this thread and only answer my questions and ask your questions next time..." (if possible ). I will accept Shahi Bukari ,Shahi Muslim and Quran references for sure so if possible try to give answer from them...

Answer in the order

------------------------------------------------------------

Brother Faisal,

Assalamo Alaikum.

You have asked good questions as a serious questioner and they are worthy of a response.

As keesooree has mentioned, these questions have probably been answered already in various forms in many prior posts, but inshallah I will take the time to answer you again.

To limit the answers from just Bukhari and Muslim and none of the other sahih's is unfair, as Bukhari and Muslim purposely avoided hadith enumerating the merits of the ahlul bait at any cost.

I have already in a previous post highlighted the fact that Imam Bukhari went to great lengths to keep hadith from the ahlulbait and about them out of his sahih.

He had no shame in narrating OVER 1100 hadith from Abu Huraira, who by his own admission used to make hadith up himself, yet:

From imam Ali (AS), about whom the prophet had said that his position is to him as was Arron's to Moses, and whom he called his brother in this world and the next; he ONLY narrated 79 hadith out of the whole 7068!

From the two "chiefs of the youths of paradise", Imams Hassan and Hussain, ONLY narrated 10 in total; 8 from imam hassan, ONLY 2 from imam hussain!

From imam zainal abideen (AS)in only 6!

Furthemore, although he was alive both in the time of Imam Muhammed Al Baqir, and Imam Jaffar al Sadiq (AS) did not relate ONE single tradition from them.

So where possible I will quote from them, but dont forget the other 4 books of the 6 Sihah Sittah, as well as all the books of the earlier historians like Tabari etc.

I hope you can see why it is objective to do so. However I will restrict myself to quoting hadith from ONLY Sunni books and hadith that have been narrated from more than one source or authority. Inshallah, I think no fair mind would reject them.

Also I will give self explanatory evidences, in brief, as opposed to commenting on them too much, as you have requested.

[Avilos]

------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Faisal_Aslam

1) Is there was some directions by Muhammad (PBUH) of Making Hazrat Ali as a first Khalifa..?
YES/No and with Yes/No tell me the Hadith and reference in short.
------------------------------------------------------------

Below I will provide just 5 Proofs (1 in each post) of appointment of Hazrat Ali as Khalifa as requested brother:

They are clear enough for those who choose to reflect:

FIRST PROOF

Prophet Moses, when he wanted to go to Miqaat, he did not ask people to form a Shura to assign a Caliph for him.

Quran tells us that:

(Moses said: "O' Allah) assign me a vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Aaron (Haroon) ...," (Allah) said: "We granted your requests, O' Moses." (Quran 20:29-36).

Allah, Exalted, also said:

"Surely We gave the book to Moses and assigned his brother Aaron as his vizier." (Quran 25:35).

Allah also said:

"... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place among the people." (Quran 7:142).

Notice that "Ukhlufni" (take my place) and "Khalifa" (Caliph) are exactly from the same root.

let us take a look at the following interesting tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari:

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"

(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700 (2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71 (3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12 (4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174 (5) al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16 (6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) thereby meant that as Moses had left behind Aaron to look after his people when he went to Miqaat (meeting Allah), in the same way he was leaving Ali behind to look after the affairs of Islam after he met Allah (i.e., his death). Let this reminder be food of thought for the possessors of pure heart and open mind.

[Avilos]

SECOND PROOF

The following tradition is written in the History of al-Tabari which is one of the important history book for the
Sunnis. Besides al-Tabari, many other historians and traditionists and commentators of Quran from among Sunnis have recorded this tradition in their books.

The tradition explicitly indicates that the Holy Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him and his family), with the order of Allah, has introduced Ali Ibn Abi Talib as his successor even in his first open preach to the people:

Narrated Ibn Humayed, from Salamah, from Muhammad Ibn Is'haq, from Abd al-Ghaffar Ibn al-Qasim, from al-Minhal Ibn Amr, from abdallah Ibn al-Harith Ibn Nawfal Ibn al Harith Ibn Abd al-Muttalib, from Abdallah Ibn Abbas, from
Ali Ibn Abi Talib:

When the verse "And warn your close tribe (Quran 26:214)" was revealed to the prophet, he called me and said to me, "Ali, God has commanded me to warn my tribe of near kindred. I was troubled by this, since I knew that when I discuss the matter to them they would respond in a way which I would not like. I kept silent until Gabriel came to me and said "If you do not do what you are commanded, your Lord will punish you." So prepare a measure of wheat for us, add a leg of lamb to it, fill a large bowl of milk for us, and then invite sons of Abd al-Muttalib for me so that I may speak to them what I have been commandedto tell them."

I did what he had told me to do. At that time they numbered forty men more or less, including his uncles Abu Talib, Hamzah, al-Abbas, and Abu Lahab. When they had gathered together, he called me to bring the food which I had prepared. I brought it, and when I put it down, prophet took a piece of meat, broke it with his teeth, put it in the dish. Then he said, "Take in the name of God." They ate until they could eat no more, and yet the food was as it had been. I swear by God, in whose hand Ali's soul rests, that a single man could have eaten the amount of food which I prepared for them. Then he said "Give them something to drink." So I brought them the bowl and they drank from it until they became full, and I swear by God that one man could have drunk that amount. When prophet wanted to speak to them, Abu Lahab interrupted him and said "Your host has long since bewitched you." Then they dispersed without the prophet speaking to them.

On the following day he said to me "Ali, this man interrupted what I wanted to say so that people dispersed before I could speak to them. Prepare the same food for us as you did yesterday, and invite them here."

I did this, and brought them food when he called me. He did as he had done the other day, and they ate until they could eat no more.Then he said, "Bring the bowl," and they drank until they could drink no more.

"Banu Abd al-Muttalib, I don't know of any young man among Arabs who has brought for his people something better than what I have brought to you. I bring the best of this world and the world after, since God has commanded me to summon you to him. Which of you will aid me in this matter, so that he will be my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you?" They all held back, and even though I was the youngest, I said "I will be your helper, O' prophet of God." He put his hand on the back of my neck and said "This is my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you, so listen to him and obey him." They rose up laughing and saying to Abu Talib, "He has commanded you to obey your son and to obey him!"

(1) History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 88-91 (2) History of Ibn Athir, v2, p62 (3) History of Ibn Asakir, v1, p85 (4) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v5, p97 (5) Tafsir al-Khazin, by Ala'uddin al-Shafi'i, v3, p371 (6) Shawahid al-Tanzil, by al-Hasakani, v1, p371 (7) Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v15, p15, pp 100-117 (8) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, v1, p311 (9) Dala'il al-Nabawiyyah, by al-Baihaqi, v1, pp 428-430 (10) al-Mukhtasar, by Abul Fida, v1, pp 116-117 (11) Life of Muhammad, by Hasan Haykal, p104 (First Arabic Edition only. In the second edition the last sentence of Prophet is deleted.) (12) Tahdhib al-Athar, v4, pp 62-63.

The above tradition was also narrated by important Sunni figures such as Muhammad Ibn Is'haq, Ibn Abu Hatem, and Ibn Mardawayh. It is also recorded by many orientalists including T. Carlyle, E. Gibbon, J. Davenport, and W.Irving.