REPLY TO INDIANS BELIEF IN SCIENCE AND EVOLUTION

[islamicboy]

Hello sorry for the delay in responding to you i was bogged with a lot of work.

Right before we start our discussion i think we need to establish few things. Our discussion initially was on religion, now it has evovled ( wow evolution in process) to a discussion on the origins of man, life and universe. So whether there is a creator or not? and where did we come from? and what was before life? whats our purpose in life and what happens when we die? these questions naturally humans try and seek an answer to. So in light of this our discussion will be solely on the idea of where did we come from? THE BIG and EVOLUTION or A CREATOR. I will not use the word god as it will have links to religion.

Now your belief and view point in life originates from the scientific thought and my belief is based on the rational thought.

Let me explain a little humans make progress as a result of the thoughts they carry about man, life and the universe (correct me if i am wrong here). Now if you were to have a problem say your car broke down, now you would not come out of the situation just by sittin there and doing nothing. You would think about the situation and follow it up with an action. Basically humans advance and progress as a result of the thoughts and ideas they carry.

Human beings perceive their surroundings directly and, through their perceptions, they acquire information about their
surroundings. By linking this information with previous information they have through use of the mind, human beings arrive at certain facts and conclusions, which provides the basis for thoughts,
concepts and ideas about life and the universe. This process, called the intellectual or rational
process, is what distinguishes human beings from all other creations, and it is the only way in which thoughts and ideas are arrived at, and these thoughts and ideas form the basis of belief.


For a belief or thought to be definite and correct, it must be established upon definite facts. In the absence of definite facts, one can only speculate or make assumptions, which leads to doubt because speculation and assumptions cannot be proven as correct. Only through the rational or
intellectual approach, which depends upon the process of thinking to arrive at definite facts, can the correct belief or thoughts be established.

What sources provide information which human beings, through the rational approach, can arrive at definite facts?

The only sources of information are:

Directly through sensory perception of the surroundings

Information from a credible source for things that are beyond the senses and the comprehension of
the human mind.

Realities that lay beyond the realm of sensory perception and comprehension cannot be proven conclusively based on observation through the senses because they are beyond the realm of perception.

Such things include: Past events, the origin of life and the universe, what was before
life and the universe, and what will come after life and the universe. Information for such things can only come from a credible source, and the validity of the information will depend upon whether
the source of the information – whether it is the Bible, or the Qur’an or the geeta – can prove itself to be a
credible source.

From these two sources, definite facts are derived, and from these facts, thoughts
and ideas are arrived at, which form the building blocks of belief and the foundation of the ideology. Are you with me so far, if you need clarification then just say?.

Now the question needs to be asked as to whether science is a basis for belief? can science answer the question of waht was before life and what is after life and what is purpose of life?

To understand this we need to understand the basis of science.

Now scientific thought or method is a method used in scientific research used to find the reality of something by subjecting the thing
to experimental conditions and environments other than its original conditions, and then comparing the original and the imposed conditions in order to deduce facts.

Do you agree with this if not then i would like your explannation of scientific method?

Now from this experiment a tangible reality is deduced. Now this method can only be employed on a tangible things that can be subjected to experimental conditions.

to give you an example testing the resistance of a type of plastic (tangible thing), would result in scientists using many experiments within a lab (experimental environment) and testing with different weights this piece of plastic ( experimental conditions).

or


A person can expose water to extreme heat or cold and observe that it freezes at a particular temperature and boils at another temperature using measuring devices, but the same person cannot use such a procedure for taking an angel or heaven and deriving certain conclusions
through observations. Similarly, a person can analyze a distant star by using instruments that can
measure its energy output, but there is no instrument that can detect the Creator and measure the
Creator’s dimensions and composition. Similarly, a person can study enzymatic reactions in a cell
or observe through a microscope the physical features of cell tissue cultures, but he cannot do the same with the economic and social problems of human beings and deduce facts based on scientific experimentation.

question now arises how can you do this with the an intangible reality such as the origins of life, after life, big bang, the organic cell that life evolved from????? as science only deals with tangible objects that can be subjected to scientific experiments. (Are you with me so far?)

Even science itself proclaims that fundamentally there is room for error or the possibility of error. I stated earlier that belief should be from a credible source where the facts provided are definate and there should be no shadow of doubt.

so for this reason and many others which will take me longer to clarify we cannot use science as a basis to understand the origins of life. Rather science should be an offshoot of the rational method i.e once we have extablished the belief using rational method and established without a shadow of doubt about the results from this method can we then use science to establish the what the tangible things in this world is all about. Again if you disagree please say?

So if the basis of science is incorrect to understand the origins of life then whatever emanates from this method has to be incorrect.

I have to go now but i will be back later and explain myself more and discuss evolution

Would be interested in your views so far. Also any brothers or sisters would like to make a comment on this subject. Lets keep this to an intellectual lever aswell. I mean lets not cuss or slander please.

[Indian]

Islamicboy, thank you for your thought provoking post.

I'm getting back to you.

[islamicboy]

indian still waiting for your response.

After your response we will discuss the theory (and i mean theory) of evolution.

Hopefully you understood my earlier post about science, again if you do not understand any aspect then i will be more than happy to clarify.

chat to you soon.

Its also amazing to see that none of the brothers made a comment on such an issue. Brothers and sisters it is these ideas of evolution and science that our muslim children are being fed.

[BOY_4ROM_BENGAL]

Sorry to interupt.

Evolution=Hinduism

Evolution, process of ape to human.
Hinduism, there is a monkey god "Hanuman".Do you know him Indian man.

Finally, would it be wrong suggesting that if apes became humans.Then humans should all have one colour skin or very similar.

And what are the monkeys, chimpanzee etc..why couldnt they bcom humans?

And in the process of evolution, why could any other animal bcom human?

(I know your answer will be the conditions of the atmosphere).


[This message has been edited by BOY 4ROM BENGAL (edited 20 September 2000).]

[Pacific]

Islamicboy, your topic is too long brother. I know you have to explain every detail, but I’m sorry, I just got bored of reading . I feel like I’m in a classroom or something. Are you a College Professor? If you could keep it a little shorter , Thanks.

Ok, if you all know about Sir, Isaac Newton, He never believed of a “God” until the very last years of his life. At the end, he said there has to be a “God” behind all that we see, and all motion.

P.S
I will stay out of this conversation since I don’t know what the heck is going on
http://www.geocities.com/sabs2379/samourai.gif http://www.geocities.com/sabs2379/SSgenjurostand.gif

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Hmmmmmm........
Close your eyes, I'll take you away from this pain.....

Pacific Your Enemies, I’ll take em to their knees.

[islamicboy]

salaam brother pacific.

I would agree with you that the article i wrote is rather long , but for me to highlight the flaws in scientific belief i needed to go into detail. Hence why article is long.

Brother it is imperative as muslims we come to our belief i.e. the aqeedah through correct way. Otherwise we will find ourselves deviating and accepting things like evolution and other erroneous ideas.


So what was the discussion about??

Well the discussion is about how did we come about? where did we come from? etc etc.

To answer such a questions what tools do we use?

Indian used the scientific approach to come to a conclusion about the origins of life and hence why he has adopted the evolution theory.

But the question i posed was that is science the correct basis to use to understand the origins of ma, life and the universe.

I Highlighted the flaws in scientific belief the discussion, insha allah i will soon highlight the flaws of evolution as well. Although brother boy has somewhat already has started the process.

Also bro pacific if you read it thoroughly i have explained the correct way to undersatnmd the origins of life.

Even as muslims we should qusetion as to how we come to our belief. Are we muslims because we are born muslims? or do we follow islam emotionally?

and no i am not a professor bro. sorry to have bored you but this types of discussions require detailed understanding.

[Wais_Islam]

Just so you know Indian, there is a good book called The Origins of Life, written by the late Dr Maurice Buccaile, a French scientist, whose other monumental work is called The Bible, The Qur'an and Science. Both are available in English and can be ordered through any good bookshops on even online.

[This message has been edited by Wais Islam (edited 19 September 2000).]