Question for Mahdi and Nur

[showkot]

Salaam Alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu

May the peace and blessings be upon our prophet Muhammed saw and his sahabah and all those who follow them until the day of judgement

Brother mahdi and Nur

Please can you give me your definition of what constitutes an Islamic state.


If a country claims that it is an islamic state, do we accept it as well ?

Do we measure from the basis from which they extract All of their laws ?

I would be grateful if you could answer with evidence from Quran and Sunnah

Also what is your opinion on Wilayatul faqih ?

Because many shias i know do not accept any form of ruling until Imam Mahdi comes.

Jazak Allah Khair

[mahdi]

bismil rabil noor,
asslamu alaikum,
br showkat.
i will be grateful if at some stage you think and answer some of questions with regards to khalif that have been addressed by some of our brothers and I.
as for your questions.
first as i said there is not a single aya of quran to mention or command that we must setup an islamic state. if there is please mention it. also, no such hadith is in existence.
1-an islamic state can only be set up by al mahdi a.s. this is why he is coming. if it were possible to do so without him then why would he come. the fact that his coming is mentioned by hadith and also, quran says 'leyuzhherahu alal deene kuleh' (it will encompass all relgions) means that his coming is a necassary element. therefore, it cannot be without him.
what you and i call islamic states are better described as islamic form of government. the difference, i am sure you would also agree is that in the case of imam mahdi's a.s. state(the pure islamic) any disobedience is a sin. he is absolutely right and he himself is a measure of truth. we can never say this or that action by him or his state is wrong and we will not follow it. in the case of the islamic government we can say that. imam hussain a.s. refused to give bay'a to yazid. imam ali a.s. refused to give bay'a to abu bakr, these are narrated in muslim, tirmidzi etc. people withdrew bay'a from othman due to his unislamic rule and corruption in his state which led to his killing.
however, while we recognise the islamic government then the authority of that govenrment is the same as imam mahdi a.s., which is the same as that of the prophet s.a.w, which in turn is the same as allah s.w.t. 'otteool lah wa rasool wa olel amr'(quran).
now the question is do we accept whichever state that makes a claim that it is islamic. answer: no.
when there is no reference to an islamic state in qur'an then one cannot gve a description based on qur'an and in that your request that the answer be in accordance with qur'an is not valid. however, the answer can be inaccordance with the spirit of qur'an, as in my view to form an silamic government is in the spirit of qur'an even thought no mention is made.
an islamic government must be led by an alem who is a faqih, just, knowledgable, brave etc etc to ensure the islamicness of the state. a council of ulama who are faqih's with similar qualities must decide if his actions (leader)are in accordance with islam or not and he must decide if the state is ruling in accordance with islam or not. those who are not alems cannot say what is islamic and what is not.
2-i support the concept of welayate faqih, as far as i know no alem disptes walayate faqih but some disagree on the form or the authority of the faqih.
in simple words welayate faqih of imam khomeini has proved, in the absence of any quranic verse or hadith, that an infallible person can and should, as a duty, form an islamic rule.

now please give me your answer to your questions and also tell us to what kind of a state would you give bay'a and how that state is formed prior to your and other muslims bay'a. in other words how could anyone form a state witouht fisrt having support and bay'a.
wasalam,
mahdi

[Abdur_Rahman]

I am eager to read the reply!

[Abdur_Rahman]

I am still eagerly wating for the responses!

[Nur]

[quote]Originally posted by showkot:
Salaam Alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu

May the peace and blessings be upon our prophet Muhammed saw and his sahabah and all those who follow them until the day of judgement

Salaam,
May Allah's blessing be upon the Prophet (PBUH) and his family as there is Allah's blessing on Ibrahim(PBUH) and his family.

For those of you who are not aware we are commanded to pray for the Prophet (PBUH) and his family during salat and according to Imam Shafi and other scholars our salat is invalid if we fail to do so.

Brother mahdi and Nur

Please can you give me your definition of what constitutes an Islamic state.

A state where the laws are based on the Quran and the sunna.


If a country claims that it is an islamic state, do we accept it as well ?

No! Many countries which have a muslim majority population claim to be islamic, but they are clearly not. For example the governments of certain arab countries claim to be islamic, but have laws which allow the consumption of alcohol and which legalise gambling houses. Such countries are clearly not islamic and their intention is not to be islamic.

Do we measure from the basis from which they extract All of their laws ?

Yes! If all the laws are based on the Quran and the sunna of the Prophet (PBUH) then it is an Islamic country.

This is only possible when a person with exact knowledge of the Quran and the sunna exists.

According to authentic hadiths reported in Sahih Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Imam Hanbal's Musnad etc only certain members of the Ahl-ul-Bayt can possess this exact knowledge.

Until such a person exists there will be some doubt and disagreement as to what is halaal and what is haraam and consequently some laws may not actually be islamic.

I would be grateful if you could answer with evidence from Quran and Sunnah

Also what is your opinion on Wilayatul faqih ?

Because many shias i know do not accept any form of ruling until Imam Mahdi comes.

I am a hanafi sunni, but will try to answer the question anyway.

You can have what approximates to an islamic state or what paves the way for a true islamic state. To say that all forms of ruling is rejected by the shias is being simple-minded. Why do you think the revolution in Iran happened and is it not true that the iranians accepted the form of ruling implemented by Imam Khomeini? In fact when Imam Khomeini gave the fatwa against Salman Rushdie did not all muslims all over the world, sunni and shia support him and accept his fatwa as legal?

Until Mahdi appears, who all muslims believe in and behind whom Isa (Jesus - PBUH) will pray and who is a descendant of te Prophet (PBUH) and who will establish a true Islamic State, we can have two kinds of state.

One which is not interested in establishing an islamic environment (never mind an islamic state) and one which strives to establish an islamic environment and takes positive steps towards an Islamic State.

The latter will have its laws based on the Quran and the sunna and will not have secular politicians as its leaders but pious alims who have knowldege of the Quran and the sunna.

Iran is the only country in the world where the highest authority is not the government, but the alims (scholars) and it is they who decide on the constitution of the state. Having read the books of Imam Khomeini and Imam Khameini and other Irananian scholars and seeing that what writings and sayings ad speeches are based on the Quran and the sunna I accept them as pious scholars.

Seeing that the highest authority in Iran is not the government, but the pious scholars I have to say that in my opinion Iran is a positive step towards an islamic state.

Having said that I do not class Iran as an Islamic State for reasons mentioned above, but even if it was the worst secular and anti-Islamic state it does not change the fact that from Iran comes the most pious and knowledgable scholars as prophesised by the Prophet (PBUH) himself, so if anyone deserves to be a Caliph and has the piety and knowledge to be one and deserves the allegiance of all muslims then it will be a scholar from Iran. In fact there is a hadith which says that persians will support the cause of the Mahdi.

Similarly, when muslims first gave allegiance to the Prophet (PBUH) there was no islamic state and there is no mention of an islamic state in the first 10 years of the Prophet (PBUH)'s mission, but muslims still gave the Prophet (PBUH) allegiance.

Anyone who reads the Quran and the sayings and speeches of the Prophet (PBUH) and other pious beleivers will see that the emphasis is on justice in Islam and not on establishing a Khilafa.

History testifies that the Khilafa is a consequence of muslims being Islamic and not that being islamic is a consequence of Khilafa as preached by the members Hizb-ut-Tahir and Al-Muhajiroun.

I hope you will be kind enough to repond to this post and say whether you agree with my comments and if not why not based Quran and the sunna. Also could you give me your answers to the questions you asked.

[muhammad]

Salaam to all,

So far I have found this discussion very interesting. It seems to me that some Muslim groups put too much emphasis on establishing a Khilafa and not enough on creating just and pious Islamic people who will follow the example of the prophet (PBUH) and not oppress each other. Surely without these kinds of people, talking about setting up a state is pointless if not even dangerous.

Wassalaam,
Muhammad