Letter to Saviour Sect/Al Ghuraba etc. regarding voting in elections

[Hasan_Ali_Imam]

Assalamu Alaikum,

I have looked at your website (www.thesavioursect.org.uk and http://www.al-ghurabaa.clara.co.uk) and read various articles. I did see my face 3rd place in your hall of shame.

I disagree with your stance that Muslims should not participate in elections. I have read the fatwas by Omar Bakri Muhammad and he bases his arguments on the Quran. Those in favour of electoral participation also use the Quran. There is disagreement. What we can all agree on is that people should not compromise on their beliefs. The parties do not ask Muslims or people of other faiths to renounce their beliefs. When people vote, they don't have to agree with all the things the party does or implements, but you are stating that they do agree with everything. I have met staunch Christians who want to see God's laws implemented in the UK and they don't agree with everything the Govt. does, yet they do participate. Whether change happens or not is down to us. If you believe you cannot change things, then you will not change them. That's guaranteed.

1. Reagrding voting for man-made laws:

The law that stipulates that murder is a crime, is this man-made (secular or atheist) or God's law? When there are laws that state that we must help those in need, did atheists come up with this first or did it come from the laws of our Creator? And if we take man-made laws such as wearing seatbelts, or obeying traffic lights, do the people become kafirs if they obey these man-made laws? Let's turn the argument around. If kafirs participate in the in an Islamic state (e.g. political or joinging the Muslim army, as happened in the past), do they become Muslims because they participate? No. Then the reverse is true.

2. Do you follow what you preach?

This is addressed to those who consider Omar Bakri Muhammad, Sheikh Faisal, Osama Bin Laden, Zarqwi etc. to be their leaders/scholars. I have known about some of your groups since university 15 years ago when I came into contact with Hiz-ut-Tahrir. Some of the remnants of HT who are now part of your jamaat will know me (I was known as 'Ali' [middle name], at the time and I studied at the LSE...I recall that HT worked hard to recruit me!) Since then time has moved on and I have seen the fracturing of Muslims by setting up more groups calling to Islam (which ALL Muslims should do regardless of which Jamaat he belongs to). I have also witnessed the then followers of OBM, when he was Amir of Hizb-ut-Tahrir in the early 90s, doing things which would now class them as kafirs/munafiqeens by your standards today. Likewise the views that Sheikh Faisal held regarding interest or the halalness of taking English women (as this is apparently a state of war!), or your groups becoming fractured after calling Muslims to unity, do show the inconsistencies and contradictions in your approaches. I would also argue based on some of Sh. Faisals talks and speaking to some of his followers, that some of the groups/jamaats you represent bear resemblence to the Khawarij. But enough of name-calling

3. Muslims becoming kafirs?

The most serious accusations you make is that Muslims becoming kafirs by participation. Again, I can highlight contradictions between what you say and what you do. I won't mention them now, but if there is an opportunity to debate this publicly then I can mention them. If such a debate is to go ahead, then I would like to debate with the most vocal and charismatic speaker you can offer, OBM comes to mind and so does Anjam Choudhury.

4. To be or not to be Kafir?

I am sure you will agree with me, the hadith where Muhammad (S) stated that when a Muslim calls another Muslim a kafir...then one of them is a kafir. At least we can agree on this. I also agree with you that Allah will judge all on judgement day. If a public debate doesn't take place then you can at least publish my letter on your website and I will welcome the responses from your readers/scholars. If that does not happen then I will wait with you for that Day and will witness against you on that Day. God is the best of all judges.

Wasslam
Hasan Ali Imam

[Hasan_Ali_Imam]

Reply from Al-Ghuraaba

wa 'alaikum

I must warn you of the severe consequences of your speech and actions, you letter contained many sayings of kufr that should not be taken lightly, the prophet (saw) said, "...A servant will say a word that will anger Allah, without even to think it important, he will go with it to the hellfire."
[Bukhari 6478, Musnad Imam Ahmad 8206, Muwatta' 1849]

Firstly, whether you agree or disagree with the views of any particular party is irrelavent, you must take into consideration the Divine ruling for every action that you do, you cannot commit something Haram or Kufr while intending from it some good, Allah (swt) informed us that he will accuont us for EVERY Deed.?By your lord, we will account all that they do, so call openly whatever I ordered you and turn away from the mushrikeen, Allah is enough to deal with the mockers.? [EMQ Hijr: 92-94]

The reality of your actions as i am sure you will agree is that:
- YOU are calling people to vote for you so that you can represent them in Parliament,
- YOU are calling people to vote for you so that you can legislate law on their behalf representing their interests
- YOU are calling people to vote for your KUFR party (even if you DISAGREE with even ALL of the party's views or not)
- YOU are calling people to vote for a KAFIR to be a ruler over them (even if you DISAGREE with even ALL of the party's views or not)
- YOU are calling people to vote for you so that you will rule over your constituency by the British KUFR law (even if you DISAGREE with even ALL of the party's views or not)
- YOU are calling people to delegate 'their' right of legislation to parliament.
- YOU wish to go to parliament to discuss and vote over legislation
- in parliament YOU will give allegiance to this country and it's leader
- in parliament YOU will at the very least CONSENT to the laws of this country (even if you DISAGREE with ALL of them)
- YOU DO NOT wish to rule by Islam
- YOU DO NOT wish to open the Qur'an in parliament and implement legislation from Islam AT ALL
- YOU DO NOT wish to change this country to an Islamic State
- YOU DO NOT wish to implement ANY aspect of Islam using this election
- YOUR Manifesto is not based AT ALL on the Qur'an and Sunnah, but rather on the ration and minds of your KUFR party (even if you DISAGREE with even ALL of the party's views)

=== PLEASE REPLY TO THIS E-MAIL AND COMMENT ON THE ABOVE LIST OF ACCUSATIONS
AS YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT IT IS TRUE ====

The above is not an exhaustive list of your crimes, but all of the above are clear disbelief in Allah (swt), Parliament is a hosue of legislation without any doubt and that is the disbelief - to legislate a single law is Shirk in Allah (swt) because the right of Legislation is for none but Allah, Allah (swt) says, ?The ruling and legislating is for none but Allah.? [EMQ 6: 57 & 12:40 ]

and, ?Allah does not associate with his right of ruling/legislation anybody.? [EMQ 18: 26]

in answer to your question regarding murder and helping the needy, in the light of the above ayat, you must understand that Islam unequivocally considers any law based on ANYTHING other than the Qur'an and Sunnah, even if it agrees with Islam (e.g. in the above cases) TO BE KUFR (DISBELIEF), and yes, anybody who obeys the law of the land even in relation to traffic lights or seatbelts IS KAFIR (DISBELIEVER) in Islam, however if they stop at a red light and fasten their seatbelt because ALLAH (SWT) ordered them to take precautions and made it permissible for them, then they are Muslim.

We DO NOT obey any Kafir in any matter even in something originally permissible, we obey only Allah and He (swt) forbade us from obedience to the non-muslims, He (swt) says, "DO NOT OBEY THE DISBELIEVERS (KAFIREEN) OR THE HYPOCRITES" [EMQ 33:1]

in relation to your argument about the non-muslims supporting the Muslim army, no, that will not make them Muslim, however if a Muslim joins the army of a non-muslim, they become a non-muslim, Allah (swt) says, "O you who
believe, do not ally with the jews and christians, they are only allies with each other, WHOEVER AMONG YOU ALLIES TO THEM, HE IS ONE OF THEM ..." [EMQ 5:51]

in relation to calling a Muslim a kafir, you misuse the hadith of the prophet (saw), Takfeer is the right of Allah and is an act of worship, to call the one who apostasises from the Deen a kafir is obligatory in Islam, but to call someone Muslim a kafir is no doubt haram . there is no doubt that the one who associates with Allah another legislator is Mushrik, let alone the one who sets himself up to be a legislator besides Allah (i.e. as
you want to become). It would not be the first time that someone like you FALSELY CLAIMED TO BE MUSLIM and then they want to arbitrate to the KUFR LAW, Allah (swt) says,? Do you see the one who falsely claims that he believes in what has been revealed to you (Muhammad) and what has been
revealed before you, and yet he wants to arbitrate to the Taghout (other than Allah) while Allah ordered him to reject it?? [EMQ 4: 60]

Fear Allah! YOU want to sit and discuss the legislation which Allah has already decided and revealed to the Messenger (saw) 1400 years ago and verily Allah did not forget ANYTHING from the revelation, you wish to sit
with other MPs and comment over the Hukm of Allah and even put it to a vote! Allah (swt) says, ?Allah is the one who legislates and judges, and nobody dares to comment on it? [EMQ Ra?d: 41]

Allah never left any choice in his legislation, you MUST accept it, you cannot put it to a vote even if you vote for Islam! Allah (swt) says, ?It is not fitting for the believing men or the believing women, when Allah and His
messenger decide a matter, that they should have any choice in the matter, and whosoever disobeys Allah and his messenger, they are in clear misguidance.? [EMQ 33:36]

Even to sit in parliament as the MPs discuss and debate over legislation is completely Haram! Allah (swt) says, ?And it has already been revealed to you in the Book (this Qur?an) that when you hear the Verses of Allaah being
denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allaah will collect the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in Hell.? [EMQ 4:140]

You want the people to refer to, arbitrate to and obey the british law when Allah forbade us to do so, and instead ordered us to refer ONLY to the law of Allah (swt) EXCLUSIVELY, Allah (swt) says, "And if you have a dispute in any matter then refer it to Allaah (swt) and the Messenger (saw), if you believe in Allaah (swt) and the Last Day. This is better for you and the best of settlements." [EMQ 4:59]

and He (swt) says, "By your Lord, NONE OF THEM ARE BELIVERS until they refer to you (Muhammad) in ALL of their disputes, and they should find no hardship therein, and they must submit fully." [EMQ 4:65]

Even to suggest the KUFR law of this country as an alternative is an insult to Allah (swt). verily, the MP is the one who the people worship them by referring to and obeying their KUFR law, Allah (swt) says, ?They imitate the
sayings of the disbelievers, Allaah (swt)?s curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth; They took their Rabbis and their Monks to be their Lords and Legislators besides Allaah (swt) and took the Messiah, the
son of Mary, while they were commanded to worship, obey and follow none but one God/Allaah; none has the right to be worshipped or followed and to legislate but he, praise and glory be to him from having the partners they associate with him.? [EMQ 9:30-31]

Although we know that the Jews and Christians do not prostrate, nor bow down to their priests or rabbis, they followed them and agreed with them when matters that Allaah (swt) had declared forbidden, they would declare
allowed; and matters declared allowed, their priests would declare forbidden. In fact the above ayah was revealed in the following circumstances. It has been reported by Hudhayfah in Ahmad, Tirmidhi and Ibn Jareer that the Messenger Muhammad (saw) was reciting the above verse and
Udayy (ra) said to Him (saw),

"Oh Rasool Allaah, they do not worship the Rabbis and the Monks? To which He (saw) replied: ?The Rabbis and Monks make that which is lawful unlawful and that which is unlawful lawful and they i.e. the people, follow them, and by doing so they worship them"

Do you want to be the one who the people obey instead of Allah? Do you want to be responsible for legislating law for which Allah gave you no permission? Allah (swt) says, ?Do they have partners who legislate for them a Deen for which they never had permission from Allah?? [EMQ Shura: 21]

YOU are standing as a candidate to be a partner to Allah1 YOU are standing as a candidate to be worshipped instead of Allah! Do you not feel any SHAME? Do you not feel shamed that you are a member of a KUFR party that hates Islam and Muslims? aren't you ashamed that you defend and call people to KUFR law? aren't you ashamed that you are supporting kuffar in their KUFR?

Verily Allah ordered us in the Qur'an, ?O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand." [EMQ 3:118]

Indeed, Allah describes you in the Qur'an. "Lo! you are they who will love them while they do not love you,? [EMQ 3:119]

The likes of you however are not a surprise to the Muslims, Allah warned us in the Qur'an, ?You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide. And had they believed in Allah and the prophet and what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them for friends but! most of them are transgressors.? [EMQ 5:80-81]

FEAR ALLAH! what you are engaged in is a very serious matter, it is the greatest of sins, it is the greatest oppression, Allah (swt) says, "Verily Allah will never forgive shirk..."

REPENT AND STOP YOUR KUFR BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE,

PLEASE NOTE: The argument from the Qur'an and Sunnah that voting for man-made law is KUFR AKBAR is clear and undisputable whereas although you claimed that your KUFR argument to vote is 'based on the Qur'an', you did
not however actually mention A SINGLE verse in your letter...


HasanCo@aol.com writes:



> I disagree with your stance that Muslims should not participate in elections. I have read the fatwas by Omar Bakri Muhammad and he bases his arguments on the Quran. Those in favour of electoral participation also use the Quran. There is disagreement. What we can all agree on is that people should not compromise on their beliefs. The parties do not ask Muslims or people of other faiths to renounce their beliefs. When people vote, they don't have to agree with all the things the party does or implements, but you are stating that they do agree with everything. I have met staunch Christians who want to see God's laws implemented in the UK and they don't agree with everything the Govt. does, yet they do participate. Whether change happens or not is down to us. If you believe you cannot change things, then you will not change them. That's guaranteed.
>
> 1. Reagrding voting for man-made laws:
>
> The law that stipulates that murder is a crime, is this man-made (secular or atheist) or God's law? When there are laws that state that we must help those in need, did atheists come up with this first or did it come from the laws of our Creator? And if we take man-made laws such as wearing seatbelts, or obeying traffic lights, do the people become kafirs if they obey these man-made laws? Let's turn the argument around. If kafirs participate in the in an Islamic state (e.g. political or joinging the Muslim army, as happened in the past), do they become Muslims because they participate? No. Then the reverse is true.
>
> 2. Do you follow what you preach?
>
> This is addressed to those who consider Omar Bakri Muhammad, Sheikh Faisal, Osama Bin Laden, Zarqwi etc. to be their leaders/scholars. I have known about some of your groups since university 15 years ago when I came into contact with Hiz-ut-Tahrir. Some of the remnants of HT who are now part of your jamaat will know me (I was known as 'Ali' [middle name], at the time and I studied at the LSE...I recall that HT worked hard to recruit me!) Since then time has moved on and I have seen the fracturing of Muslims by setting up more groups calling to Islam (which ALL Muslims should do regardless of which Jamaat he belongs to). I have also witnessed the then followers of OBM, when he was Amir of Hizb-ut-Tahrir in the early 90s, doing things which would now class them as kafirs/munafiqeens by your standards today. Likewise the views that Sheikh Faisal held regarding interest or the halalness of taking English women (as this is apparently a state of war!), or your groups becoming fractured after calling Muslims to unity, do show the inconsistencies and contradictions in your approaches. I would also argue based on some of Sh. Faisals talks and speaking to some of his followers, that some of the groups/jamaats you represent bear resemblence to the Khawarij. But enough of name-calling
>
> 3. Muslims becoming kafirs?
>
> The most serious accusations you make is that Muslims becoming kafirs by participation. Again, I can highlight contradictions between what you say and what you do. I won't mention them now, but if there is an opportunity to debate this publicly then I can mention them. If such a debate is to go ahead, then I would like to debate with the most vocal and charismatic speaker you can offer, OBM comes to mind and so does Anjam Choudhury.
>
> 4. To be or not to be Kafir?
>
> I am sure you will agree with me, the hadith where Muhammad (S) stated that when a Muslim calls another Muslim a kafir...then one of them is a kafir. At least we can agree on this. I also agree with you that Allah will judge all on judgement day. If a public debate doesn't take place then you can at least publish my letter on your website and I will welcome the responses from your readers/scholars. If that does not happen then I will wait with you for that Day and will witness against you on that Day. God is the best of all judges.
>
> Wasslam
> Hasan Ali Imam



http://www.al-ghurabaa.clara.co.uk
al-ghurabaa@clara.co.uk

[ahmed_tabib]

Originally Posted by Hasan_Ali_Imam

2. Do you follow what you preach?

> This is addressed to those who consider Omar Bakri Muhammad, Sheikh Faisal, Osama Bin Laden, Zarqwi etc. to be their leaders/scholars. I have known about some of your groups since university 15 years ago when I came into contact with Hiz-ut-Tahrir. Some of the remnants of HT who are now part of your jamaat will know me (I was known as 'Ali' [middle name], at the time and I studied at the LSE...I recall that HT worked hard to recruit me!) Since then time has moved on and I have seen the fracturing of Muslims by setting up more groups calling to Islam (which ALL Muslims should do regardless of which Jamaat he belongs to). I have also witnessed the then followers of OBM, when he was Amir of Hizb-ut-Tahrir in the early 90s, doing things which would now class them as kafirs/munafiqeens by your standards today. Likewise the views that Sheikh Faisal held regarding interest or the halalness of taking English women (as this is apparently a state of war!), or your groups becoming fractured after calling Muslims to unity, do show the inconsistencies and contradictions in your approaches. I would also argue based on some of Sh. Faisals talks and speaking to some of his followers, that some of the groups/jamaats you represent bear resemblence to the Khawarij. But enough of name-calling.

Abdullah Faisal as-Shaykh? How on earth did a kharijee like him become a Shaykh? Which Scholar did he take 'ilm from? Which Scholar from Ahlus Sunnah advises us to listen to his rubbish? Omar Bakri, Ibn Laden are known for their khurooj and takfeer against Muslim rulers and even laymen Muslims.

See the pdfs from the links below explaining the ghuloo, ignorance and dangerous ideologies of these takfiri individuals:

||SalafiManhaj.com||
(The Devil's Deception of 'Abdullaah Faysal)

||SalafiManhaj.com||
(Omar Bakri Appeals to the British Government to Give Him His British Citizenship Back!)

HT calls for Khilaafah while wishing to work alongside people like Khomeini? They do not call to Tawheed as their first priority, and there is no unity amonsgt the Muslims without the correct 'aqeedah. And yet we see many HT spokespersons disobeying Allaah and His Messenger openly with their clean shaved faces. Is that the call to unity? Without calling to tawheed and disassociating oneself from the shirk and bid'ah that the Muslims have fallen into, the call to Khilaafah is ajeeb to say the least.

[deosai]

Hi,

THE WORD MUSLIM:

When the word muslim comes, our thoughts automatically flow towards the meaning of this word, which is " A person who submitts his will to Almighty Allah" and " the follower of islam" (Al Munjid, arabic dictionary), there is no any other word for the follower of Islam in the Holy Quran and Hadith.

Just as Allah says: It is he who has named you Muslim, both before and in this (Revelation, the Holy Quran) (Al Hujj, chapter no- 22, verse no-78)

Allah says: Abraham was not a Jew not yet a christian; but he was true in faith, and muslim( Al Imran, chapter no-3, verse no- 67)

The word muslim is proved from the Holy Quran, having other names is to create differences.

OUR DEEN:

The meaning of "Deen" is jughment, when "yaom" is put with "Deen" the meaning will be " the day of judgment" ( Sorah Fatiha, chapter-1, verse-4).

Deen means "Law" too, the word "Deen" is used in the Holy Quran in the meaning of "Law", Allah says: He (yusuf) could not take his brother by the law of the king except that Allah willed it (so). ( Sorah yusuf, chapter-12, verse-76)

When the islam is used with deen, it means "Islamic Law", for example, Allah says: no doubt, the deen (law) before Allah is Islam(Al Imran, chapter-3, verse-19)
Allah says: Allah has chosen Islam for you as Deen (Law).

Allah says: Allah has chosen Islam as Deen (law) for you. (Sorah Al Maidah, chapter-5, verse no-3)

It means, the law which muslims have to follow that is "Deen Islam" which is proved by the Holy Quran, muslims do not have to follow the "British Law" because this not Allah's order for muslim, British law is man-made law, just like Muslimeen follow Deen (Islamic Law) in the era of Mohammad, Abu Bakker Siddique, Umer Bin Khattab, Usman Gani, Ali Bin Abi Talib.

Allah says: If anyone desires a religion other than deen Islam (law), never it will be accepted of him and in the hereafter he will be in the rank of those who have lost. (Sora Al Imran, chapter no-3, verse-85)
The deen (Law) which is only acceptable that is Islam, the religion other than Islam is not acceptable, this is very clear, not ambiguous statement it is which is difficult to understand, it is clearly mean that other religions and sects will not be acceptable before Allah.
Now we have to think that, things which are ordered (revelation) by Allah and Rasool must be followed, and the things which are not proved by the Holy Quran and authentic Hadith must not be followed, so Election is not proved way of electing someone as a ruler of the state in Islam, in Islam there is a concept of Majlis-e-shoora, who elects the caliph (head) of the muslim state, the election is a method which is given by the europeans and the parliamentary system too. So strive to propagate real islam, don't joke and moke it please, struggle to promulgate only Islamic rule, not any other, in the same way as Mohammad (SAW) did in his life of Makka, when islam was in his initial stage, without being extremist. Thank you

Best Regards

[Hasan_Ali_Imam]

Assalamu Alaikum,

May Allah reward you Br. Ahmed Tabib. I found the websites to be highly informative. Well since my last correspondence with this deviated group of Takfirees, I was due to have a debate with Omar Bakri Muhammad (in 2005) on two topics: 1) Are the attacks on America justified? 2) Is it Haram to be involved in Western politics? One week before the debate was due to take place I had a call from Omar Bakri's spokesman/representatives that it would not be a good idea to go ahead with the debate because it would appear that Muslims are fighting each other. So there you have it.... on the one hand they publicly refer to me and fellow colleagues who are in volved in politics as Kafirs and have mugshots of us, yet on the other hand they excuse themselves from debating on the basis that I am a Muslim and they don't want to show disunity!

Such are the Khawarij. On hindsight I should have been a bit more bold and challenged them. Inshallah I will continue to hunt down the Khawarij and their followers and engage them on a public platform if Allah so wills. Omar Bakri, Anjam Chaudhury....members of Al Muhajiroun and Al-Guraaba (or whetever new name you change to) where are you?

I would love to see an influential scholar from the Khawarij debate with Dr. Zakir Naik on the issue of suicide bombing ,terrorism and rebellion against rulers. So far Naik has been very cautious in not condemning Bin Laden and his Khawarij cronies for obvious reasons because he has not seen or met with Bin Laden and doesn't want to make judgments based on media channels. But knowledgable scholars have looked into Bin Laden and his sympathisers and and condemned them. Naik needs to use his debating skills to up the tempo and debate with this misguided Muslims and correct them. We have focused enough on Non-Muslims, and now the fire must be turned towards those who are trying to destroy Islam from within.

Ws
Hasan

[Khilari]

You're back Bro! Salaam. It has been a long time since I read your posts.

[ahmed_tabib]

Originally Posted by Hasan_Ali_Imam

Assalamu Alaikum,

May Allah reward you Br. Ahmed Tabib. I found the websites to be highly informative. Well since my last correspondence with this deviated group of Takfirees, I was due to have a debate with Omar Bakri Muhammad (in 2005) on two topics: 1) Are the attacks on America justified? 2) Is it Haram to be involved in Western politics? One week before the debate was due to take place I had a call from Omar Bakri's spokesman/representatives that it would not be a good idea to go ahead with the debate because it would appear that Muslims are fighting each other. So there you have it.... on the one hand they publicly refer to me and fellow colleagues who are in volved in politics as Kafirs and have mugshots of us, yet on the other hand they excuse themselves from debating on the basis that I am a Muslim and they don't want to show disunity!

Such are the Khawarij. On hindsight I should have been a bit more bold and challenged them. Inshallah I will continue to hunt down the Khawarij and their followers and engage them on a public platform if Allah so wills. Omar Bakri, Anjam Chaudhury....members of Al Muhajiroun and Al-Guraaba (or whetever new name you change to) where are you?

I would love to see an influential scholar from the Khawarij debate with Dr. Zakir Naik on the issue of suicide bombing ,terrorism and rebellion against rulers. So far Naik has been very cautious in not condemning Bin Laden and his Khawarij cronies for obvious reasons because he has not seen or met with Bin Laden and doesn't want to make judgments based on media channels. But knowledgable scholars have looked into Bin Laden and his sympathisers and and condemned them. Naik needs to use his debating skills to up the tempo and debate with this misguided Muslims and correct them. We have focused enough on Non-Muslims, and now the fire must be turned towards those who are trying to destroy Islam from within.

Ws
Hasan

Wa 'alaikum as-salaam brother. You are spot on. Just let the layman Muslim wander around some of the "Islaamic" forums and websites -- and Allaah forbid, they'll come out making takfeer of themselves. Such is the danger of these takfeerees and khawaarij who have done nothing to aid this deen except to try to destroy it.