Gay Muslims come out in San Francisco parade!!

[Amar-Sonar-Bangla]

Pluralistic Democracy in Islam


By Asghar Ali


‘Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true’.
- Francis Bacon


Islamic Statehood Today

Islamic state is a most discussed subject both among supporters as well as among its opponents. Is there any such concept? Can we call any state an Islamic state? There are many claimants of course. Interestingly among the claimants are military dictators as well as monarchs. Can we legitimately call it an Islamic state? Is there any such criterion to judge the claim? If so, what is that criterion? Generally some ritualistic aspects of Islam like prayer, fasting, zakat etc. are imposed in addition to the Islamic punishments to lay claim to the Islamic state. Will it be enough of a criterion?


Concept of Islamic State in Qu’ran/Haadith

First of all we should know whether there is any concept of Islamic state in the Qur'an or Hadith literature. A thorough examination of the scripture and Hadith literature shows that there is no such concept of Islamic state. In fact after the death of the Holy Prophet the Muslims were not agreed even on the issue of his successor. The Muslims split on the question - a section maintaining that the Prophet (PBUH) never appointed any successor and another section maintaining that he did.

As far as the Qur'an is concerned there is, at best, a concept of a society rather than a state. The Qur'an lays emphasis on 'adl and ihsan i.e. justice and benevolence. A Qur'anic society must be based on these values. Also, the Qur'an strongly opposes zulm and 'udwan i.e. oppression and injustice. No society thus based on zulm and 'udwan can qualify for an Islamic society. The Qur'anic values are most fundamental. It is thus debatable whether a state, declaring itself to be an Islamic state, can be legitimately accepted as such without basing the civil society on these values. We will throw more light on this later.


Pre-Islamic Feudal Governance

First of all it is important to note that the pre-Islamic Arab society had not known any state structure. It was a predominantly a tribal society which did not know any distinction between a state and a civil society. There was no written law, much less a constitution. There was no governing authority either hereditary or elected. There was a senate called mala'. It consisted of tribal chiefs of the tribes in the area. Any decision taken had to be unanimous and the tribal chiefs enforced the decision in their respective tribes. If a tribal chief dissented, the decision could not be implemented.

There was no taxation system nor any police or army. There was no concept of territorial governance or defense or policing. Each tribe followed its own customs and traditions. There were of course inter-tribal wars and all adult tribals took part in defending ones tribal interests. The only law prevalent was that of qisas i.e. retaliation. The Qur'an put it succinctly as "And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding. " (2:179) The whole tribal law and ethic in pre-Islamic Arabia was based on the law of retaliation.


The Meccan State


The Islamic movement in Mecca inherited this situation. When the Prophet and his companions faced severe persecution in Mecca they migrated to Madina also known as Yathrib. Madina was also basically a tribal city governed by tribal laws. Like Mecca in Madina too, there was no state and only tribal customs and traditions prevailed. In fact Madina was worse in a way than Mecca. In Mecca inter-tribal wars were not much in evidence as it was turning into a commercial society and inter-tribal corporations for trade were coming into existence. However, Madina, being an oasis, was a semi- agricultural society and various tribes were at daggers drawn. It was to get rid of the inter-tribal warfare that the people of Madina invited the Holy Prophet as an arbitrator.

The Prophet, a great spiritual and religious personality, commanded great respect and set out to establish a just society in Madina. First of all he drew up a pact between various tribal and religious groups known as Mithaq-i-Madina (i.e. the Medinese treaty) which guaranteed full autonomy to all tribes and religious groups like the Jews, the Muslims and other pagan tribes. Thus all religious groups were free to follow their own law and tradition and there was no coercion in such matters. The Holy Qur'an also declared that "there is no compulsion in the matter of religion" (2:256). The Mithaq-i-Madina was a sort of preliminary constitution of the `state' of Madina which went beyond a tribal structure and transcended the tribal boundaries in matters of common governance. It also laid down that if Madina is attacked by an outside force all will defend it together. Thus for the first time a concept of common territory so necessary for a state to operate, was evolved. Before this, as pointed out earlier, there was concept of tribal but not of territorial boundaries.

The Prophet, in a way, took a revolutionary step, in dissolving tribal bonds and laying more emphasis on ideological boundaries on one hand, and territorial boundaries, on the other. However, the Prophet's aim was not to build a political community but to build a religious community instead. If Muslims evolved into a political community it was accidental rather than essential. Hence the Qur'an lays more emphasis on values, ethic and morality than on any political doctrines. It is Din which matters most than governance. Allah says in the Qur'an that al-yauma akmaltu lakum dinakum (i.e. I have perfected your Din today, 5:3). Thus what the Qur'an gives us is a perfect din, not a perfect political system. The political system had to evolve over a period of time and in keeping with the needs and requirements.


Enforcing good and Combatting Evil

One of the basic duties of the Muslims is "enforcing what is good and combating what is evil". This clearly gives a moral and spiritual direction to an Islamic society. The later emphasis on integral association between religion and politics is, to the best of my knowledge, totally absent in the Holy Qur'an. The Prophet was an enforcer of good par excellence and he devoted his life to eradicating evil from society. But he never aspired for political power. He was one of the great spiritual persons born on this earth. He strove to inculcate spiritual power among his companions. The following verse of the Qur'an enunciates the basic philosophy of the Muslim community. "You are the best ummah (nation, community) raised up for people: you enjoin good and forbid evil and you believe in Allah." (3:109)

Thus it will be seen that the basic task of the Muslim ummah is to build a moral society based on good and negation of evil. The unity of Muslims is possible only if they remain basically a religious community engaged in building a just society which has no elements of zulm (oppression and injustice), though there may be different ways of approaching the truth. The Holy Prophet is reported to have said that a society can persist with kufr (unbelief) but not with zulm (injustice). The Qur'an also describes Allah as Ahkam al-Hakimin (i.e. best of the Judges, 95:8). These are all value-giving injunctions and hence give a direction to the society.


Nature of Politics

Islam never required Muslims to evolve into a political community. Politics leads people basically to power-seeking projects and aspirations for power brings about division rather than unity. The Qur'an required Muslims to remain united and not entertain disputes weakening themselves. "And obey Allah and His Messenger", the Qur'an says, "and dispute not one with another, lest you get weak-hearted and your power depart, and be steadfast. Surely Allah is with the steadfast." (8:46)

When some one aspires for political power they dispute with each other and thus become weak which is what Muslims have been warned against. And in the history of Islam the dispute between Muslims arose on the question of political power. Who should wield political power and who should rule was the main question after the death of the Holy prophet. Thus Muslims began to divide on the question of power.

Various disputes arose between different groups of Muslims even leading to bloodshed during the thirty years of what is known in Islamic history as khilafat-i-Rashidah (period of the rightly guided rule). This thirty year period is full of conflict and bloodshed. Three rightly guided Caliphs out of four were assassinated. Why the spirit of unity was lost? Why wars broke out between different groups and parties? It was mainly on account of fights between different aspirants for power and pelf. The first signs of these aspirations appeared immediately after the death of the Holy Prophet.


Early Islamic Rivalries

The people of Mecca belonging to the tribe of Quraysh claimed their superiority over others and said that an Imam can only be from the tribe of Quraysh as they first embraced Islam and they were most cultured and cultivated with adequate experience. The supporters of the Prophet from Madina the Ansars, on the other, claimed that it is they who helped the Prophet when he was driven out of Mecca due to severe persecution by the people of Quraysh and hence they better deserve to succeed the prophet. the Imam or Caliph, they claimed should be from amongst the Ansars. The members of the family of the Prophet (PBUH) felt that 'Ali, the son-in-law of the Prophet and leader of the Hashimites, was better qualified to succeed the prophet.

Thus these fissures appeared as different groups aspired for leadership and consequently for power associated with the'nascent Muslim state. It is also necessary to stress here that a preliminary state structure came into existence because it was historical and not religious need. We would like to elaborate this a bit.

Ibadaat and Relations between Muslim’s

As every Muslim knows the religious duties of Muslims are to pray, fast, pay the poor due (zakat), perform Haj and believe in tawheed (unity of Allah) and not associate aught with Him. This is necessary for spiritual control over oneself. A Muslim can perform these obligations wherever he/she lives. There is no need for an Islamic state for this. A Muslim living in a non-Muslim society can perform these obligations without let or hindrance. And even when there is Muslim rule no ruler can forcibly enforce these obligations on Muslims. Matters of 'ibadat (i.e. acts of worship and spiritual exercises) cannot be coercively enforced by any authority. It is a matter between human beings and Allah.

However, it is different matter as far as mu'amalat (i.e. relations between human beings) are concerned. A state has to govern these mu'amalat and ultimate aim of the state is to set up a society based on justice and benevolence ('adl and ihsan in the Qur'anic terms). 'Adl and 'ihsan are most fundamental human values and any state worth its salt has to strive to establish a society based on these values. But for this no particular form of state is needed. Even an honest monarch can do it. It is for this reason that the holy Qur'an praises prophet-rulers like Hazrat Da'ud and hazrat Sulayman who were kings but Allah's Prophet's too. Even Queen Bilquis is praised for her just governance in the Qur'an though she was not a prophet herself.


Importance of Consultation

But the Qur'an is also aware that such just rulers are normally far and few in between. The governance has to be as democratic as possible so that all adults could participate in it. If governance is left to an individual, or a monarch, the power may corrupt him or her as everyone knows absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is for this reason that the Qur'an refers to democratic governance when it says: "And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and whose affairs are (decided) by mutual consultation, and who spend out of what We have given them" (42:38). Thus the mutual affairs (those pertaining to governance) should be conducted only by mutual consultation which in contemporary political parlance will be construed as democratic governance. Since in those days there was no well defined practice of political democracy, the Qur'an refers to it as `amruhum shura' baynahum i.e. affairs to be conducted through mutual consultation which is very meaningful way of hinting at democracy. The Qur'an is thus against totalitarian or monarchical rule.

Here a problem may arise as far as the Shi'ah sects are concerned. They believe in the theory of imamah i.e. only an Imam from the progeny of the Prophet's son-in-law and his daughter Fatima can inherit the Prophet (PBUH). The Shi'ahs, in other words, reject the concept of khilafah i.e. succession to the Prophet through election by the people. The right to succession is confined only to the members of the Prophet's family and it is available to no one else. It is no doubt the very basis of the Shi'ah tradition and faith.


Hazrat Ali and the Shia’s

But this hardly changes the ethos of governance. The state in Iran is today a democratically elected one. The President of Iran and the Majlis (parliament) are elective in nature. In todays world there is no question of a ruler coming from the Prophet's family. It was a different matter when the controversy arose immediately after the death of the holy Prophet. A group of people then did feel that Hazrat Ali, the son-in law of the Prophet who was rigorously just, who had fought and won many an Islamic battle, who was one of the bravest and most honest person should have succeeded the Prophet. He was qualified for good governance in ways more than one. Apart from being just, honest and brave, he was most learned as well. The holy Prophet had described him as gateway to the city of knowledge, Prophet being the city of knowledge himself. He was also greatly confident of his knowledge. He often used to say saluni qabla tafquduni i.e. ask me before you loose me.

In such circumstances it is not surprising that many people felt that Ali was much more qualified to succeed the Prophet than any one else. His two sons Hasan and Husain were also eminently qualified as they too were inheritors of the virtues and qualities of the Prophet, they having been trained and brought up by the Prophet and Ali. No one else has such an excellent opportunity to have been so intimately connected to the Prophet and the whole Islamic atmosphere around him.


Shia belief in Immamah

In fact the theory of Imamah was based on this certainty of correct religious guidance on one hand, and, a guarantee for good and just governance, on the other. It is this inner certitude which gave rise to the belief that the members of the Prophet's family are most suited to guide and govern. The Shi'ahs moreover believe that the imams were infallible and can do no wrong. But two things are again important to note here. The governance by imam also could not be absolute in personal terms, much less dictatorial or authoritarian. The Imam will also have to consult the representative of the people as per the Qur'anic injunction in 3:158 in which even the Prophet (PBUH) is required to consult them.

This verse i.e. 3:158 is very important verse in laying down the guidance for governance. It is a divine statement against dictatorship or authoritarianism. The verse reads: "Thus it is by Allah's mercy that thou art gentle on them. And hadst thou been rough, hard-hearted, they would certainly would have dispersed from around thee. So pardon them and ask protection for them, and consult them in (important matters)..." Thus a ruler has to be gentle, not hard-hearted and rough and has to act in consultation with the representatives of the people. This verse has been addressed to the Prophet and no imam from his family can deviate from this divine injunction.

Thus even an imam from the Prophet's family cannot be absolutist and has to base his rule on democratic principles. Thus even the Shi'ah theory of imamah cannot lead to absolutist or purely personal rule. Also, an imam can be infallible in religious matters, in laying down religious rulings. But in all secular and worldly matters he will be bound by democratic structures of governance.

Secondly, the theory of imamah was much more relevant as far as the close relatives of the Prophet who lived either with him or very close to his period, was concerned. Today, more than fourteen hundred years after the death of the holy Prophet, no one can claim such physical closeness to the Prophet and its resultant benefits. And even within the first century of the Prophet's death there were many claimants for the office of Imam and the Shi'ahs were divided into number of sects and sub-sects what of today fourteen hundred years after the death of the Prophet who can determine the authenticity of the claimant to the office of the imamah? The twelve Shi'ahs and also the Isma'ili-Mustalian Shi'ahs believe in seclusion of their respective imams. No wonder than that Iran has adopted the elective principle of governance which is what is the ultimate aim of the Islamic scripture.


Non-Arabs in the fold of Islam

Also, once Islam spread to vast areas of the world outside the confines of Arabia new ethnic and racial groups were added to its fold. This proved both the strength as well as weakness of the Islamic society. Strength as far as rich diversity was concerned and weakness as far as complex problem and group conflicts it gave rise to. The group conflicts got greatly intensified even within the limited period of Khilafat-i-Rashidah which lasted for slightly less than thirty years.


The Quraysh

During this period number of groups came into existence. The most powerful group was of the tribe of Quraysh who were muhajirs (immigrants) to Madina to which they migrated along with, or after the Prophet, to avoid persecution in Mecca. They claimed to be the sabiqun al-awwalun i.e. those who responded to the call of Islam earlier than others and also belonged to the tribe of the Prophet. After the death of the Prophet they also came out with the doctrine that the Khilafat be confined to the tribe of Quraysh. However, the Quraysh were divided into several clans of which the clans of Hashim (to which the Prophet himself belonged) and of Banu Umayyah were at loggerheads. Among the Quray****es the Hashimites and the Umayyads fought against each other for the leadership of the nascent Muslim state. Ali and his sons (particularly Hasan and Husain) who were claimants to the leadership all belonged to the clan of Banu Hashim.


The Ansar

Then there were Ansars i.e. those who belonged to the tribes of Aws, Khazraj of Madina and who had helped the Prophet by swearing allegiance to the Prophet and helping him (hence Ansars i.e. helpers) migrate to Madina and supporting him vis-a-vis his powerful opponents. The Ansars also claimed leadership of the state after the death of the Prophet on the basis that they had helped the Prophet and that without their help his mission would not have survived. But the Quray****es strongly resisted their claim to the Khilafat. Then the leaders of the Ansars proposed a compromise and said let one from the Quraysh and one from the Ansars share the leadership but this was also turned down by the Quray****es that it would lead to more conflict and confusion.


The Mawali

The third group was of those Muslims who embraced Islam from amongst the conquered non-Arab peoples of Iraqi or Persian or Egyptian or Syrian origins. The emphasis of Islam on justice and equality of all believers was great attraction for these non-Arab peoples. In course of a few years large number of non-Arabs, most of them belonging to weaker sections of society converted to Islam and demanded equal treatment. But despite strong emphasis of Islam on equality of all believers irrespective of their social status, nationality, colour or race, the ruling classes among Muslims were not prepared to accord equal treatment to them. Most of the Muslims were accepted Muslims only when they were made mawla (affiliate or associate) of a tribe. Kufa and Basra in Iraq, Egypt, Damascus etc. became centres of these non-Arab Muslims. Many of these non-Arab people were those captured in various wars.

As for the first group i.e. the Quray****es, they wielded power with the second group of Ansars being their co-partners. These groups were contented to a great extent though some sub-groups were not. The Hashimites, for example, were a discontented group among the Quray****es as the non-Hashimites had captured power. Similarly among the Ansars who were initially the allies of the Quraysh, the younger generation among them felt neglected.

The fact that the second Caliph was assassinated by a discontented non-Arab slave on the dispute about wages to be paid to him, showed the beginning of the dissidence in early Islamic society. It reached its peak during the period of 3rd Caliph Hazrat Usman when the non-Arab people from Egypt, Kufa and Basra surrounded his house and murdered him in presence of his wife when he was reciting the Holy Qur'an. Dr. Taha Husain in his book Al-fitnah al-Kubra (The Great Insurrection) has dealt with this problem. This uprising against Hazrat Usman was result of deep discontent found among them as they felt completely neglected and found themselves discriminated against.


Class/Sectional Differences

Islam had tried to usher in a just society based on compassion, sensitivity towards other fellow human beings, equality and human dignity. However, the well entrenched vested interests, though pay lip service to these values, in practice sabotage them in various ways and continue to impose their own hegemony. The weaker sections and the downtrodden attracted by the revolutionary thrust of Islam and its sensitivity towards them, felt disillusioned and revolted. This revolt brought about near anarchy in society and resulted in civil war in which thousands were killed.

There was yet another group of Bedouins who lived in desert and resented the hegemony of the urban elite. They considered the Khilafat as an urban rule imposed on them. They were not accustomed to submission to any authority. Thus in the Battle of Camel fought between the fourth Caliph Hazrat Ali and Amir Mu'awiyah, the bedouins seceded from the army of Hazrat Ali and raised the slogan "al-hukmu lillah" (i.e. Rule of Allah). They adopted extreme postures and caused much bloodshed in the early history of Islam.


Changes in Islamic Political Ideology

Ultimately the Umayyads captured power and Khilafah was converted into monarchy. Maulana Abul A'ala Maududi has thrown detailed light on it in his book Khilafat aur Mulukiyyat. Thus we see that the Islamic society went through great deal of turmoil and bloodshed and could not evolve a universally acceptable form of state. When the Abbasids overthrew Umayyads in the first half of the second century of Islam, there again was great deal of bloodshed. When the Abbasids captured power, some Umayyads fled to Spain and established their own rule there. Now there were two Caliphs simultaneously in the Islamic world. Earlier the theory was that there could be only one Caliph or Imam at a time. Now that theory had to be revised in view of the empirical reality and two Caliphs at a time were accepted. But still later at the end of 2nd century of Islam the Fatimid Imams established their rule in Egypt and now there were several rulers at a time in the Islamic world.

The Abbasid Caliphs were also reduced to nominal heads of the state as the Buwayhids and Saljuqs captured powered and wielded real authority. They came to be known as Sultans, the real power behind the Abbasid caliphs. The Islamic political theory had to undergo change again. Now by and large non-Quraysh were wielding power and hence the theory of Quraysh alone becoming caliph had to be abandoned. Earlier the Kharijites (Seceders) who were mainly Bedouins and hence non-Quray****es had rejected the theory that only a Quraysh could become the caliph.

Thus we see that the political theory of Islam had to undergo frequent changes to accommodate the empirical reality. It is, therefore, not possible to talk of an 'Islamic State' with a sense of finality. It is extremely difficult task to evolve any ijma' (consensus of Muslims) on the issue. Today also there are several Muslim countries with as varied forms of state as monarchical to dictatorial or semi-dictatorial to democratic. All these states, however, call themselves as 'Islamic State'.


State Structure and Individual Rights

The forms and structures of state are bound to vary from place to place and time to time. It would be very difficult, for example, to create a democratic state in a feudal society. Thus the Qur'an does not give much importance to the form of state but greatly emphasises the nature of society. While the state is contingent the society based on values like justice, equality, compassion and human dignity is a necessity in Islam. And needless to say in our time it is only a democratic state with widest possible power-sharing arrangement which can guarantee such a society.

Also, as per the Qur'anic teachings the Islamic state should guarantee equal rights to all ethnic, racial, cultural, tribal and religious groups. The Qur'an considers racial, national, tribal and linguistic differences as signs of Allah and indicative of identity (see 30:22). It also accepts the right of other religious communities to follow their own religion and it also accords equal status to men and women (see 33:35 and 2:228). The Qur'an accepts plurality in society as will of Allah (5:48).


Democratic/Plural Character of the Islamic State

Thus in view of all this an Islamic state should have following characteristics: 1) It should be absolutely non-discriminatory on the basis of race, colour, language and nationality; 2) it should guarantee gender equality; 3) it should guarantee equal rights to all religious groups and accept plurality of religion as legitimate and 4) lastly it should be democratic in nature whose basic premise will be human dignity (17:70). Only those states which fulfill these criteria can be construed to be Islamic in nature. Thus an Islamic state is the very epitome of modern democratic pluralistic state.


[/quote]


Any move toward a modern Islamic polity would be the ‘epitome of modern democratic pluralistic state’.


The allegation that Islam is unique and does not correspond to any human (‘manmade’) system is a gross misrepresentation. The democratic system of rule is the one which most closely equates to Islamic ideals. The central ethical command in Islam is to rule with fairness and justice. Since democracy is a system embodying fairness and justice, how can it be so far from the very essence of Islam?

The Khilafa dictatorship advocated by HT and other contemporary Islamist groups not only violates the fundamental Islamic principle of Tawhid (oneness of Allah (SWT)), since it introduces an element of Shirk, making one man (the all-powerful ‘Kaliph’) or some clique arrogate to himself/theirselves the authority of the state, under totalitarian conditions.





If that’s the case then how comes the Muslims lived under a system for 13 hundred years and even until know many non Muslims admit the fact that the Islamic political system was one of the best system that ever existed in human history

You mean the same political system which produced a Khaliph Yezid and in it’s dying days led to the genocide of over a million Armenian Christian’s? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Secondly lets look at the democratic system, someone would not even know where to start from that’s how crap the system is.

Which is no doubt why you live in and benefit from the fruits of a democratic pluralistic society.

It’s a system based on man making law which means a man who has been living in Sylhet for example will be influenced by his surrounding

Erm….correct me if I’m wrong, but those elected to office should at least have lived and been bought up in their constituency. It raises awareness about the needs and priorities of the very ppl they serve. Thus, in Bangladesh, the population would never accept an Arab or Pakistani ruler, no matter how pious. lol

That’s right I have to agree with my friend here it promotes those values of liberalism, I mean I can not deny that fact, coz I see it on news every day how they are promoting their freedom to the people of Iraq.

Yep, there will be elections in a few months. Most of the population, especially the marginalised Shia community, support the foreign presence. We’ll see how things pan out after a more permanant constitution is drawn up. Without a Coalition presence, how many thousands of Sunni and Shia would have died in the resulting civil war?

The colonialists have been promoting their sick vales to the world, values like freedom which means that someone can be a gay a lesbian a paedophile and rapist, a criminal, because he is free to do what ever he wants in life, and we see the clear effects of those values in their society people live like animal it’s a fact that no one can deny living in such a society Is like living in a jungle where the fittest survives. Those are the value that they promote those are the values which are glamorised on TV which my friend has fallen in love with.

Needless HT ranting. If you hate ‘Western values’ so much, please go and shut yourself in your house or some remote mountaintop. Having disconnected and disposed of all your electronic appliances, including the internet. Are you not a member of the UK society? You are as responsible for the good and the bad prevailing in society, as are we all.

OK Pluralism. At this one I have to loool, its funny because I only see 2 parties in USA that a very good example of pluralism that my friend is talking about

If you want to set up a political party in the US, as a US citizen, you’d be welcome to do it. Whether you’ll persuade anybody to listen to you is another matter. Besides, Ross Perot’s independant’s may yet play their part.


Secondly look at their idea of pluralism, you can have many different parties yet all of them have to be secular, it has to be in their way or else it is rejected, like Rumsfiled said Iraq can have any system they chose but they can’t have Islam. Again that idea is not true but just an illusion that people don’t understand

Has the Coalition banned the various Islamic parties in Iraq? Those with the Ayatollah’s leading? Hasn’t the Coalition opened a dialogue with Grand Ayatollah Sistani? And which branch of Islam have the Iraqi people 'chosen', the Shia or Sunni version?

Public accountability.. lol we have seen the biggest demo’s around the world on the issue of Iraq war yet the government went to war with the Muslims.

The ‘biggest demo in the world’ had 1,000,000 demonstrators. There are more than 60,000,000 Britons represented by the UK government. Even then, the democratically elected government of the day exercised it’s prerogative powers in going to war. Prerogative powers are not exercised by elected politicians in the UK (an archaic provision which demands rectification) but in the name of the Crown. They do not usually even require Parliamentary assent. Which I believe the Labour party received in any case.

Public privatising lol, don’t try to put those things in a way that it looks good, try to understand the effect of it. Ask you’re self who benefits from privatising everything not the poor people rather it’s the few elites who, benefit from it

At least this country has resources to privatise. Your mythical Khilafa has nothing. Ever heard of the Welfare State? Another ‘Kaffir’ invention, no? lol


The only just system for mankind is the Khilafah system which based on just and treats its citizen as human beings and looks at them as one citizen not minority or Jews or any other religion. It treats every one equally and deals with everyone justly unlike the western system


{Yawn}….just like it dealt ‘equally’ with the Armenian’s and the Arabs (so much so that the latter required only the feeblest of promptings from T.E. Lawrence to rise against their Turkish overlords)….


And finally if you love the western system so much then why are you worried about being a Muslim and guy, you should be happy because that person is practicing his freedom

While homosexuality is disapproved of in Islam, as I’ve stated previously, I believe in a ‘live and let live’ philosophy. Neither I nor the vast majority of law abiding Muslim’s will inflict violence upon homosexual’s.

Rather, you should be concerned about your randy Kaliph choosing your mother or your sister for his hareem.


We have seen the full contradiction of the secular system and its fruits and we don’t need it any more,

That’s not what the average HT Islamist with dreams of Khilafa but drawing benefits and plum jobs from the ‘Kafir’ British government and it’s policies is saying by their own actions.


man is not capable of ruling as his desire and emotion and the influence by his surrounding effects his judgements. That’s why we see there are different laws in different countries regarding the same issue, which proves that man is not capable of making rules.

Rather, they are evidence of Allah’s (SWT) diversity in creation.


What a contradiction one moment you promote freedom and pluralism and the next minute you claim government should dictate peoples life, your worse then Sadam Hussain.


Please read what I wrote. I didn’t say the government has/has not the right to dictate peoples life choices. Merely that Muslim's should be universal in our condemnation.


Stop copying and pasting stupid arguments from Cnn and start thinking


I could counter by asking you to cease reading kiddie magazines like the ‘Khilafa’. Try reading the more moderate mainstream Muslim literature in the UK, like Q-News. It isn’t perfect (bit too middle class orientated), but certainly more representative of Muslim’s in London and the wider UK community.

[amee_patla_na]

Originally posted by Andywelik

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Andy's response:

No doubt that there are many Muslims who condemn terrible acts like Muslims killing Jews.

But very *unfortunately* such Muslims are in for BIG TROUBLE with the god of the Koran.

The god of the Koran WANTS MUSLIMS to kill ALL THE JEWS of the world. And also he does not TOLERATE Muslims who make friends with Jews and Christians.

Do you deny what I am stating above?

If you do deny, then you are in trouble with the god of the Koran as well for denying his words as truth.

Can you see that?

those idiot muslims who believe in suicide bombings etc have the same mentality & understanding as you when it comes to the Quran.

[Andywelik]

Originally posted by MaKe_iT_LEgAL
surely u cant be both.... its either one or the other?..

if ur gay u R NOT muslim...

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Pl. tell me (us): When a person wants to become a Muslim is he/she asked whether they are homosexual, before he/she is made to recite the Shahada?

And if a person becomes a Muslim by RECITING THE SHAHADA, and then becomes a homosexual, later, does he/she become a NON-MUSLIM?

Is not recoting the Shahada, the OMNLY WAY to become a Muslim to start with?

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As a Born-Again follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, let me show you what the Holy Scriptures of the Bible says as given to Prophet and Saint Paul by the Holy Spirit of Almighty God.

Here it is as given in 1st Corinthians Chapter 6: (KJV Bible)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither ***fornicators***, nor idolaters, nor ***adulterers***, nor effeminate, nor ***abusers of themselves with mankind, *** (homosexuals)
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

AND NOW LOOK AT THIS:

11 And such were some of you: (i.e. Born-Again followers of the Lord and Saviour Jesaus Christ) but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified (made holy) , but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[Andywelik]

[quote]Originally posted by Mazed_London
[b]As salamu’alaikum

You wrote: >> Its perfectly Halal to stop when red light shows, but we don’t stop because it’s the law of the country rather its because of our safety and the Shahria allows it <<


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Regarding the above: The Koran says that Muslims must kill Jews because the Jews are PERSECUTING THE MUSLMS in Israel. And here it is:

[2.191] And kill them (JEWS) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence **they drove you out**, and persecution (by the Jews on Muslims) is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them (Jews) at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

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Now my question is this: Why don't Muslims kill Jews in England?

The Koran says kill Jews, but you don't do it!

Why?

Because the LAWS of England don't allow it. Not because it is for your own safety!!!

[Andywelik]

[quote]Originally posted by Mazed_London
[b]As salamu’alaikum

You wrote:

>>Of course if all else fails then one must consider migration. Hijrah, or migration, as Islamic history tells us, means moving away from a land where Muslims are persecuted to a land where they can live freely as Muslims.<<

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What you have said above, you should show to Yasser Arafat. I don't think Arafat knows about it!!! Also please show it to the PLO living in Israel.

The HOLY LAND (Palastine or Israel) was given to the Jews by the god of prophet Mohammad according to this verse in the Koran. Here it is:

Sura 5:21: [Prophet Musa is saying to the Jews]
" O my people! ***enter the HOLY LAND*** which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers."

[Mazed_London]

in man-made systems, the sovereignty is given to human beings - either to one human being, or a group of human beings, or the people. In any case, when the human being is made as the reference, then there will always be some people that are "above the law," because the sovereign is the reference, and the reference itself cannot be referenced to something. Furthermore, the sovereign cannot be held accountable, which will lead to the sanctification and glorification of human beings, and above all of this, the sovereign itself (the human mind) is limited and subject to error, inconsistency, and contradiction.

And unlike Islam, where the process of understanding the legal sources and deriving rules is well-defined, the process of deriving rules and legislation in man-made systems is up in the air and ambiguous. For this reason, one will find that in man-made systems, the deriviation of rules, legislation, and policies, depends upon volatile factors such as prevailing interests, who is in charge, twisting arms, and lobbying, which are subject to constant change and manipulation. And the inevitable consequence of such a system is the enactment of laws, legislation, and systems that will tend to favor a certain group of people at the expense of others. This fate will befall every man-made system, in spite of the presence of many sincere individuals and even sincere leaders.


The Islamic Khilafah state is neither a democracy nor a dictatorship, nor is it a monarchy or theocracy, it is unique. Muslims do not choose to apply the language of the western political scientists to describe their system. They call it the Khilafah and consider it to be Allah's (swt) law on earth. However, despite the sovereignty being for Allah (swt) the right of selecting a ruler, and putting him straight, lies firmly within the hands of the people. Man simply implements the laws of the Creator and Legislator, Allah (swt) and his Shari'ah. This ensures that nobody is above the law, including the Khaleefah. Consequently, the importance laid on electing the right man is minimal, because the law and peoples rights will be protected and remain the same regardless of who rules.his Islamic Khilafah was the state that, within a very short time, conquered two thirds of the known world, including the Roman (Byzantine) and Persian Empires. It was this state that within just 50 years had gone from a small town in Arabia to conquering the whole of North Africa. It shone as a beacon of light and advancement. It subjected man only to the will of Allah (swt) and not to any other mans desire. Soon, Insha-Allah, it will return to guide mankind towards the right path. Allah (swt) say's,

"Surely we have revealed to you the book (al-Qur'an) with the truth so that you may rule between mankind by that which Allah has shown you, so be not a pleader for the treacherous." (An-Nisa: 105) TMQ