lower case(islam or democracy) a challange to any one to say otherwise from Quran

[coolthinking1]

Well I have done few editing. This a kind and polite dare to those who like to enhance their abilities.

Is it wise to talk about things – and just go about accusing, taking things out of context, hurting feelings of others out of sheer stupidity, be they of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or any other faith? The funny thing is you all know the answer and most of you in this forum live in a civilized society yet show such abhorrent revile attitude in your language towards each other and the respective faiths is actually dumb founding! Here I thought jerry fallwel was the grave and imminent danger to the world at large. I also thought pat robertson and his pseudo religious TV stations and his desire to be the architect of us foreign policy (toward the Muslims) would be the ultimate victory for Christendom (political sense) and its lunatic fringes. But the topic is not about them.

Here you guys fight about issues with very little understanding of your own faith – then some of you dare to attack others faith in a most vile manner – (that goes for the Muslims too), I can’t help but wonder how is it that some of you guys have not installed few of the basic western values in your manner, such as desire for dialogue, open mindedness, tolerance and understanding and specially never to insult another mans faith. Mind you, these values are also universal from Quranic point of view. What would you tell God on the day of judgment when God asks (you) the Muslim; did you not notice that when you were busy insulting other gods and their faiths – in turn they were hurling insults toward Me and the most beloved of My servants, Mohammad (pbuh)? O Muslims, when one insults your faith and you – do like the prophet (pbuh) did. He (pbuh) has set examples after example on this in the most beautiful manner and on every other issue, one can imagine. Other than the siahha sitta there are actual Jewish and Christian historical writings that will verify what I am saying. Look it up in is his (pbuh) bio by the same. So Muslims should neither insult nor engage in degrading other faiths. Only use good arguments and good exhortations. Prophet (pbuh) and Allah and common sense require you to do that. And remember Islam holds no monopoly on truth nor should one monopolize or claim truth is only on their side. I hope you understand this fact. Also this is part of the learning process of tolerance.

Now, Islam or democracy! I begin with the fact that no political system is mentioned in Islam as the only valid system as against all others. There is no doubt the Holy Quran speaks of democratic system where the rulers can be elected by the people, but it is not the only system recommended by Islam. God the knower of all things, chose Islam as universal religion and wisely he did not see it to be the prerogative of this universal religion to choose a system of government without due regard to the fact that it is not practically possible for a single system to be applicable to all regions and societies of the world. And please say nothing about the shariah. For once, one must realize that 73 sects would certainly interpret 73 versions of the shariah and which one would you have the mullahs implement? That is another subject because it has to do with jurisprudence. It is a vast subject requires, broad explanation.

Before I jump to which political system is good or bad for men – let us see first whether it is the failure of political systems and their inherent defects which are responsible for the sufferings of men or is it those who run it? Can immoral selfish, greedy or corrupt political leadership which rises to power by democratic means be really good and beneficial for society as against the benign dictators? You need not be a social scientist to answer that. So far we in the mighty west have failed in the mid east crisis, because of what? with all our power we could not establish nor can we guarantee even a one day peace in Mideast crisis. Do you wonder why? Are you one of those who is quick to blame the Muslims for that? And if you are find out what created in you such automatic response. If that does not satisfy your mind then ask this to yourself, what is the most important fundamental lacking in the approach of US foreign policy towards the Mid east? Bigoted minds would think it is the fault of Muslims alone. You see Islam gave advice and a guarantee for peace. In Quran Islam lays extraordinary stress on introducing absolute morality to all sphere of human activity – politics being no exception. And it is meant to be (from example of the prophets) voluntary. Yet, look around and you will see that the fact is west is still the best place to live, where you can worship your religion freely as you see fit and provides almost all other fruits Islam has promised. Now when you look at our so called Muslim nations, you notice almost all of them have failed miserably, even in the need to guarantee the basic human rights of her citizens and still are swimming in utter ignorance about their beautiful faith. Could Islamizaiton be the remedy? Only a fool would entertain such a thought. Because such concept with the present day Ummah is so narrow that in it there are no room for any body else even with a slightly different view. Turkey is a very sad example of Islamic progress. Anyway now imagine this, if the West were applying absolute morality to all sphere of human activity with none of the pork barrel politics and selfish policy – where would West go in terms of advancement? Answer is beyond our conception. O yes, this not a wishful thinking, indeed West would have gone far, far ahead of others. Can it be that this is God’s plan at work? I hope one of you would analyze this and write a little note on it.

In the verse below God gives an injunction to mankind – not just to Muslims. Muslims are addressed as ‘O Muslim, when it is only applicable to them. There could be some small variation to that here and there or it could be applied to both.
“Verily, God commands you to give over the trusts to those entitled to them, and that when you judge between men, you judge with justice. And surely excellent is what Allah admonishes you with! Allah is all-hearing, all-seeing” (4:58). Ponder on this verse – so that you may grasp the immense power of it.

Now those who have the depth would see that democracy has not developed enough even in the most advanced nations of the world to reach the stage of polity which is the ultimate political vision of democracy. Add to that now the corruption factor. So to say that western democracy would succeed in Africa, Asia, and South America or in so called Islamic countries is just a hollow and unrealistic claim. Just as Shariah would not succeed in any muslim country either in its present understanding.

Those who are blind followers of any faith – does not conform to reason and rationality would not agree with me. Specially the Muslim mullahs. But their reason is not because they follow blindly Islam it is rather because their’s only faith is their ego and worship of ego. And most of them follow that before they follow the command of the Mighty Lord.

Islamic teachings do not reject any political system of the world. It leaves it to the choice of the people or established tradition left in that country. The question now you have is where is the proof? Certainly I would not give statement without backing it up. Monarchy is mentioned repeatedly in the holy Quran without being condemned as an institution. A prophet of Israel reminds the Israelites of talut: the Holy Quran says “ their prophet said to them: Allah has appointed for you talut as a king. They demurred said, saying: how can he have sovereignty over us while we are better entitled to sovereignty than he, and he has not even been granted abundance of wealth? He answered; surely Allah has granted him superiority over you and has given him a large portion of knowledge and strength. And Allah bestows sovereignty upon whom he pleases. Allah is lord of vast bounty, All-Knowing. (2:247). Monarchy is also mentioned in the broader sense of the people being the monarch themselves. Again Quran says “call to mind when Mosses said to his people: O my people, recall the favor that Allah bestowed upon you when he appointed prophets among you and made you kings, and gave you that which He had not given to any other of the peoples.(5:20). Also in Islam expansion by conquest was never seen as a good thing (even though many a Muslim leaders of ages ago are guilty of that), as we find in the verse about the queen of Sheba advising her counsel. “She said: surely when mighty kings invade a country, they despoil it and humiliate its leading people. And that has been their way (27:35). Kings can be good or bad just as elected prime ministers or presidents. Did you know that Holy Quran mentions a category of kings who were appointed by God. Such as King Solomon (as), who was not only a king but was also a prophet. This shows that sometime the office of prophet hood and sovereignty may combine – but only with the commission from God. Another type of sovereignty comes through the authority of the prophets. The following verse shows that: “O ye who believe, obey Allah and obey His messenger and those who are in authority among you. Then if you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His messenger if you are believers in Allah and his messenger and last day. That is the best and most commendable in the end. (4:59).

Specially for the Muslims of the west pay attention to the line “those who are in authority among you” ; it also means obey the law of the land. Specially the food on your table, if it comes from the land where you reside then you must obey the law of that land be it Christian or Hindu or be whatever it may. I say that because Allah want you to live by justice for your souls well being. So if you do not like your govt. It is best you leave that country, rather than creating disorder in that country. Now let me point out the inherent weakness in the democratic form of election. It is this, when the masses make the choice on superficial impression and latest assessment of the poll and are incapable of judging for themselves the sound qualities of leadership who would serve them the best, then it is only a futile attempt in democracy in the truest sense. Now add the fact that usually the voters are left with bad and worse candidate to pick – does that not take it away form its true stated goal of “by the people”. To get back to the earlier point, do not take things out of context by assuming that all monarch or kings are divinely chosen by god from my statements. This misconception which has been common in Christian system is not shared by the holy Quran.

Well I forgot to tell you about the Islamic definition of democracy. According to holy Quran people have the free choice to choose any system of the government which suites them. Any system are valid provided they are accepted by the people. However it seems that democracy as I said before is preferred and highly commended in the holy Quran. The Muslims are advised to have a democratic system though not exactly on the pattern of western style of democracy. No, Islam does not provide with hollow definition of democracy for good sound bite. Abe Lincoln’s definition is good, for the people, of the people, by the people as a system, but it is not implement able in a materialistic society. One can easily conclude that with the rising of capitalism, truly democratic elections can not be held anywhere. As the system defined by Abe Lincoln for the people is not really safe even in the most democratic countries in the world. I believe that is why Islam deals with the principle of it and leaves the rest to the people. So you can say according to Islam to form a government it can be said “follow and benefit, ( from the commandments & injunctions given) or stray and be destroyed”. Anyway the two pillars of Islamic concept of democracy is this : 1. Democratic process of election must be based on trust and integrity. 2. Governments must function on the principle of absolute justice. Now you can elaborate this to your hearts level best, or as much you have developed. As you can tell one can give more examples. I am sure there are plenty more who are more knowledgeable, and write better. I prefer to write in a lower grade for common folks to grasp.

Now, I accept any challenge on any issue, my viewpoints would be from Quran or hadith. Be it on science, Para normal, guidance or injunctions. One can bring it on, so long as one wishes to understand, desires not to be petty and keeps an open mind throughout. Specially those who likes to find fault and ridicule the best of man, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) about his conduct and his ministry. I dare to say how little indeed is your knowledge about the contemporaries of the time of the prophet (pbuh). Use common sense about the time and how customs were then, and you would easily see the extreme of diplomacy and kindness he used with Jews and pagans and absolute justice the true prince of peace (bible called him that) established during his life time. So please read the information on Islam from the source that is Islamic. Would a Jew or a Christian or a Hindu take lesson or like to learn or hear the opinion of a Muslim scholar on their respective faiths? I think not. So then why some of you choose to do just that when it comes to Islam, when you yourself would not let that happen to you or your faith? This is good enough for today. I will get to creation and evolution soon and that would set things in motion for you to see the wondrous creative genius of God. May God be our guide.

[desi-soul]

Dear coolthinking,
Few questions that came to my mind.
Lets say, islam supports democracy,

what is the status of a nonmuslim in such a system?

Can non muslim population have a say in such a govt?

Will they be free to express themselves for or against the govt policies?

Will nonmuslim population free to live, drink and eat food of their choice?

Will Islamic democracy allow preaching and following the religion of ones own choice? [The same way as western democracy tolerates islamic missionaries in their land]

Can a nonmuslim stand for an election?

Will a nonmuslim be allowed to ever head or share power in an islamic democracy?

What would be the tax stucture?
Will it be common income tax for muslims and nonmuslims alike? Will nonmuslims be forced to pay protection tax? since this is supported in koran too.

What would be the rule for nonmuslims, applying for jobs in armforces or police force?



Thank you.